Sad looking plants

[BexHaystack]

Hi all,

I'm starting to see some signs of some kind of deficiency in my tank. The tank has been going for 3 months now. In the last month or so I've noticed the Eleocharis acicularis start to yellow, brown patches on the leaves of Staurogyne rubescens and Hydrocotyle tripartia and the beginnings of 'brown-ness on some of the M. umbrosum - all of these plants looked well until about a month ago...

Tank: 54 litre
Critters: 2 Amano's, Cherry Shrimp, 7 CPDs, 3 Gertrude's Rainbowfish, a few Pygmy Corys and an Oto
Lights: 22W Led on for 6 hrs
Filter: JBL CristalProfi 701
Substrate: Tropica Plant Soil
No CO2 - I add 2ml of EasyCarbo every morning - this is their max recommended dose for heavily planted aquariums

Fertilser: TNC Complete - I took guidance from their recommendations for EI dosing "1ml per 10 litres of tank water 3x per week will give a dose similar to the Estimative Index levels – Be sure to change 50% of your water once per week to remove organic waste from the plants". That would work out at 5ml 3 x a week but because I am not using CO2 I lowered this to 3ml 3 x a week (Monday, Wednesday, Friday with a 50% waterchange on Sundays). I live in Brighton where the water is quite hard, I think I have read that this can affect the availability of certain nutrients.

I'm not sure what's going wrong, I'm guessing that my lack of CO2 is a limiting factor but my lights aren't very bright, something must be out of whack but not sure what? Any help appreciated, it's my first attempt at a planted tank and I'd like to keep it going.

 

[PARAGUAY]

You could try a "blackout" something Ian-m one of the admins recommends a lot to eradicate algae. Some of the stems look healthy on top though indicating lighting levels inadequate.? Maybe increase fertiliser. How about investing in a small nano CO2 set,plenty of them reduced at good prices at moment.Many of the experts use hard water so that shouldn't be a problem.Using liquid carbon is I think classed as more high than low tech so be aware of that.How about more smaller water changes. Sorry not to be sure but on a lot of members journals what you describe is quite common a few months on,good luck

"

 

[alkm]

From your pictures it looks as though the older leaves are showing the deficiency. If this is the case for your other plants, and the new leaves look healthy, it suggests that the deficiency is a mobile nutrient such as nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium etc. If you google mobile and immobile plant nutrients you'll find more info.

How much plant growth have you had in 3 months? If you have increased your plant mass substantially then you may need increase the fertiliser to meet the extra demand. You could also try to gradually increase the photoperiod to promote growth. I've read that aquatic plants require a daylength of at least 12 hours. The rationale states that shorter daylengths can act as a signal to the plant to slow growth - this makes sense to me and I currently have a day length of 9 hours and so far no problems.

Whatever you decide to do be sure to give it time to have an impact in the aquarium, I would say make a change and wait 3 weeks to see what effect it has.

Anyway, good luck.

 

[BexHaystack]

@PARAGUAY @alkm Thanks for your replies.
It's situations like these that really show me how much of a novice I am... I'm not sure what to adjust first - I worry that I will end up making everything worse because I don't understand what I'm doing wrong in the first place! I am especially cautious about increasing lighting, I have a little bit of BBA and GSA and I don't want to encourage it by adding any more light so I guess that leaves me with the choice of adjusting CO2 or nutrients. I'm not keen to set up a CO2 system yet as I'd like to get my head around the basics of this current setup first. So that leaves nutrients I suppose. I am thinking I should increase the dosage from 3ml - 3 x a week to 4ml and see how that goes?

Looking closely at the Hydrocotyle and Staurogyne I noticed that it begins with browning around the edges of the leaves and then gradually spreads across the whole leaf, it does seem to be on older leaves generally but some neweish leaves are affected too

 

[alto]

an Oto

he wants more friends (even just one!)

Maybe pick up a nerite snail (or few), also try adding some tiger shrimp (I find them to be more algae focused than some of the other shrimps), try gentle rubbing to see how "attached" algae is, more water changes (this will often increase "natural" CO2 re tap water may have slightly/substantially higher levels than tank), daily fertilizer rather than increasing the 3x a week dose .... you might also try (gradually) increasing light to 8 hours OR slightly lowering the LED ...

 

[PARAGUAY]

@BexHaystack ,I consider myself a novice, but I have had successes and failures.When something goes "right"its a balancing act to keep it that way and when it goes a bit wrong my approach is to try different things adjusting /incresing fertilisers as alkm is indicating and/or as alto says a few different approaches,I find reading the journals over and over and the tutorials a good way forward you soon see even the experts dont always find it plain sailing.

 

[alkm]

I've got a suggestion for you to consider:

- Add some floating plants (e.g. pistia stratiotes and/or frogbit) to cover approx. 20 - 25 % of the surface area of the tank - the intensity of your light may be a problem. If you add the floating plants you will lower the intensity of the light reaching the submerged plants and should eventually be able to gradually increase your photoperiod. They will also help to combat the algae, they should also lower the nutrient demand from your plants.

- Increase the fertiliser dosing as you suggested above.

- Add some shrimp/snails as alto suggests.

Give it some time and see if you get an improvement.

 

[In2Aqua]

I'm not 100% sure, but It could be too much iron, ie. toxicity, not deficiency. EI is ~0.5ppm Fe / weekly. This tank may not need that level perhaps. I had very similar looking plants when I pushed the Fe dosing limits in my 'crazy experiments tank'.

You've got new soil there binding some Fe, but I wonder whether Ca Mg CO3 etc in very hard water can lead to Fe build up as they 'steal' all the binding sites in the substrate? I'm also interested to know whether excess Ca can inhibit plant uptake of Fe?

Insert smarter person than me here.

 

[alkm]

You've got new soil there binding some Fe, but I wonder whether Ca Mg CO3 etc in very hard water can lead to Fe build up as they 'steal' all the binding sites in the substrate?

I suspect that Fe++ and Fe+++ have much stronger interactions with soil particles than Ca and Mg ions. Even if Fe is released in its soluble form in the substrate it is highly likely to be oxidised to insoluble Fe before it reaches the water column.

TNC complete has EDTA added and both Fe ions definitely bind more strongly than Ca and Mg ions' so the fact that the water is very hard should make no difference to soluble Fe levels. Bound Fe in the water column is released through a process of photoreduction so could there have been an overdose? According to TNC complete specs, the Fe concentration is 0.8%. Therefore if the OP dosed the max recommended amount (15 mL/week) the Fe concentration would be 0.2 ppm and would accumulate to a maximum of 0.4 ppm assuming no uptake from plants and 50% weekly water changes.

Given the facts above in my opinion it would be unlikely (although not impossible) that Fe toxicity is the cause

 

[BexHaystack]

he wants more friends (even just one!)

I know, I feel guilty about it I got just the one to begin with and wanted to get more but then discovered we'd be moving (next month) so thought I'd wait til after the move which I expect will be quite traumatic for all the inhabitants

daily fertilizer rather than increasing the 3x a week dose ..

Do you mean I should take the 3 x a week dose (3ml x 3) and divide it by 7? Ie 1.2 ml per day?

I will try to do at least one additional water change during the week to see if that helps.

I've also put the spraybar back in to see if that helps, I took it out and used the standard jbl outlet when I added the fish as the current seemed to strong but they seem a bit braver now.

try gentle rubbing to see how "attached" algae is

Nothing comes off when the leaves are rubbed, the 'brownness' remains, it doesn't seem to be algae (though algae may join the party later!) but some kind of deficiency...

 

[BexHaystack]

Add some floating plants (e.g. pistia stratiotes and/or frogbit) to cover approx. 20 - 25 % of the surface area of the tank - the intensity of your light may be a problem. If you add the floating plants you will lower the intensity of the light reaching the submerged plants and should eventually be able to gradually increase your photoperiod. They will also help to combat the algae, they should also lower the nutrient demand from your plants.

Thanks for replying, I tried some Savinia in the beginning but it melted away - I think the fact that I have a glass top didn't agree with it or too much flow? Maybe will have more luck with another type of floating plant.

 

[alto]

so thought I'd wait til after the move which I expect will be quite traumatic for all the inhabitants

It can be surprisingly non-stressful to fish if you're able to focus on the tank ie tank moves first or last rather than in the midst of the chaos

Check if tap water parameters are similar at both places - much simpler if you don't need to move water, though if you do, just get sufficient buckets to bring along ~50%
Make sure that tank is well maintained before the move, increase water changes so that tank & tap water are a close match (& water quality is excellent), have a large back up bin that you can keep fish in just in case (any food safe plastic, with blue, green, black being preferred fish colors)
And if you decide a rescape is in order after tank has an eventful car ride, fish can happily live in bin.

Give filter & tubing a clean a week before the move, rinsing all media so debris is minimal

2 Amano's, Cherry Shrimp, 7 CPDs, 3 Gertrude's Rainbowfish, a few Pygmy Corys and an Oto

I'd plan on keeping shrimp separate from fish during move, also don't add to the same bin unless you've some very secure hiding areas for shrimp

If the shrimp are difficult (read impossible ) to remove, they can likely just travel in tank, you'll just need to secure rocks etc against slipping/falling during transport, aquarium soil is also rather more slippery than sand

 

[alkm]

I tried some Savinia in the beginning but it melted away - I think the fact that I have a glass top didn't agree with it or too much flow?

It's never easy is it! I have some Salvinia and it has failed to thrive and I think it's down to flow as you say. I also have frogbit and pistia and both have done very well so you may have more luck with these varieties. I ordered pistia from a seller on ebay (10 fro £3) and was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the plants.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

but I wonder whether Ca Mg CO3 etc in very hard water can lead to Fe build up as they 'steal' all the binding sites in the substrate?

No, the iron ion is more strongly bound than the divalent ions (Ca++, Mg++) and they won't be exchanged for Fe+++ ions. Theoretically if you have a very strong solution of ions then an ion lower down the lyotropic series can replace one higher up, but this won't happen in the tank.

I'm also interested to know whether excess Ca can inhibit plant uptake of Fe?

It can.

cheers Darrel

 

[PARAGUAY]

Keeping the livestock in a quiet as possible situation and total darkness during the move and they should be ok and leave the lighting off after while they settle