Methane Greenhous hypothetis

[zozo]

I've just been thinking for a while "What if??"

Example, burning methane CH4 we almost all use to cook our food with is alledgedly also our greatest consern regarding co2 emission and greenhouse effect our world seems to suffer from. Studies seem to reveal that more plantmass on earth could be an effective way to drasticaly reduce co2 contents in our the atmosphere.

Now i also know from chating with farmers (i praticaly live among them almost all my life) that heating a greenhouse with a methane gass burner has a noticeable possitive effect on the plantgrowth because of the co2 enriched air in this greenhouse. Gass burning greenhouse heaters are highly popular among the farmers.

Now comes the what if.. We all know those silly airpumps we use taking air from the atmosphere and pump it in hour tanks.. Now what if we place this airpump in a small well aerated space where a little gass flame is burning producing co2.. And an airpump functions as exhaust strong enough to push trhough a co2 diffuser of course and provides the chamber with new fresh air to keep the flame burning clean.

Would this have bennefiscial results in a planted tank??

Now i'm not a chemist, but would this also add and accumulate unwanted substances to the water after all water is much denser than our atmosphere.??

What are your thoughts about this hypothetical idea??

 

[Nelson]

Too much hassle .

 

[jagillham]

In theory maybe. Although I can just imagine the thread "I've burnt my fish tank down!"

 

[Tim Harrison]

Genius....

 

[zozo]

Genius....

Roflcopter..

 

[Mick.Dk]

Just to take a bit off the sarcasm here...............................
Something very close to this idea is actually how "gassing the water" was done in aquatic nursery, too............................but 30 years ago !!

 

[zozo]

Just to take a bit off the sarcasm here...............................
Something very close to this idea is actually how "gassing the water" was done in aquatic nursery, too............................but 30 years ago !!

30 Years ago, around the time the cole mines closed and the gas was found!?.. Any insight on the results?? But, tell me about farmers, you can call 'm Hulky, Ham-Fisted and beeing a scrooge more often than sometimes.. But all that adds up in actualy just beeing honnest, which most poeple are not realy used to. The ones i heard it from also told me for earning big money it's not realy lucrative. You would need to burn massive amounts of gass and in the end you don't want suffecating employees laying around in your greenhous.... But on small scale it realy seems to work..

I'm just curious what this would do to the water collum?

I know for a fact, because i'm a plumber by heritage, that with exhaust gasses from High efficiency gas burners the condensation water is highly acidic. There for you need stainles steel exhaust pipes. Actualy never gave it a thought, where this acidity came from, just took it for granted.. Now since i'm playing with co2 in my tanks.. Is started to wonder???

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Actualy never gave it a thought, where this acidity came from

Probably from the sulphur dioxide (SO2) impurity in the methane. Tomato growers used to use propane burners in the UK to get the CO2 level up to ~1300ppm.

I've no idea how you would diffuse the gas from combustion into the tank.

cheers Darrel

 

[zozo]

I've no idea how you would diffuse the gas from combustion into the tank.

That's something to think about.. In a simple way with an air pump ther might be a cunstruction way to make it work..

Once a friend of mine had 2 of the same house plants, one in the hallway and the other in the bathroom. He showed me, the one in the bathroom was same age, same pot, same soil and same treatment but was 3 time bigger. I talked about tit with my neighbour farmer and he knew the answer straight away. The bathroom had a water heater hanging, you know the old fasion models from years back, with a pilot flame and the exhaust in the room itself. So this little pilot flame in the bathroom gave enough co2 to the room to make that plant grow bigger.

So i was thinking a little pilot flame in a container, where the co2 accumulates at the top, after all it's warm air and co2 from the flame accumulating there. If an airpump would be placed at the top it would obviously pump co2 enriched air out. But before thinking of a construction to make it work, i guess first have to think of "is it safe to push air like that through a water collum with planst and fish?? Water after all isn't air and accumulates differently..
As you said, it also contains impurities?

 

[zozo]

As you said, it also contains impurities?

Finaly found the right terms to do a search to find out.. See.. Aquarium keeping is all about patience..
And found my answer and so have to quote myself.. But everybody else probably have forgotten about this luni idea.. Chances are slimm, but you never know who might think of the same.

Here is the answer..

Yes it does contain more than co2 only.. A clean burning methane, propane or buthane doesn't matter not only produces Co2 when burned cleanly but also NO2 which is extremely soluble in water.. And if i did read correctly if this gass reacts with water it forms HNO3

And i'll be darned, now this is stuff we especialy do not want to have to much in our tankwater.

We can consider this myth busted.

 

[Manuel Arias]

...and not talking about the fact that you assume that the combustion efficiency is a 100%. NO2 injection is bad, but even worse methane injection as result of a less than 100% combustion efficiency (and it will be always the case), which will kill your fishes straight away.

Cheers,

Manuel

 

[zozo]

...and not talking about the fact that you assume that the combustion efficiency is a 100%. NO2 injection is bad, but even worse methane injection as result of a less than 100% combustion efficiency (and it will be always the case), which will kill your fishes straight away.

Cheers,

Manuel

Yes indeed, didn't think of that one.. And answers another question i had about recycling.. Was thinking i have a sump with a trickle part.. Thought these bacteria in there produce co2.. So matter a fact a trickle sump must gass out co2, but next to the co2 the bacteria also produce methane.

Another myth busted, thanks a lot.. An air pump above a trickle sump probably also isn't a good idea.. What actualy makes me think again, then the bacteria in the substrate must do that as well.. And aint doing much harm. Where's the point of where it becomes harmfull??

 

[Manuel Arias]

What actually makes me think again, then the bacteria in the substrate must do that as well.. And aint doing much harm. Where's the point of where it becomes harmfull??

Soils have bacteria that consume methane producing CO2 instead. This is related to the stratification of the oxygen concentration in soils. Methanogenesis happens in an environment with low oxygen content, so usually deeper in the soil. The so-generated methane goes up in the soil, purely by density differences and diffusion, and at a layer with higher levels of oxygen, other bacteria oxidize the methane to generate CO2 and produce energy in the process. There is an interesting paper about the role of bacteria in removing methane at global scale here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91497/

And this other about the methanogenesis location in soils:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91355/

The process of formation of methane is done by anoxic organism, i.e. no presence of oxygen. This also means that this will only happen if the soil is too thick or if the water circulation in soil is very restricted. Because of that, it is unlikely to happen in aquariums. This was an old problem of reef tanks with thick soils, which nowadays have been tackled by favoring water circulation in soils. In filters the problem can still happen, due to the amount of microorganisms consuming oxygen, so the bio-films can have some anoxic regions in which methane can be produced. However, the amount is rather small unless water circulation in filters become too slow, thing most people tend to avoid by regular cleaning.

Cheers,

Manuel

 

[zozo]

Thanks Manual, nice reads.. Clears up a lot of stuff, only found some rather short articles about bacteria producing both gasses at the same time and not particular aquatic just an article i found on co2 producing bacteria.

But since in low tech tanks, was it walstad methode? not doing waterchanges nor clean substrate and wait for bacteria to decompose organic matter and produce co2. This actualy made me think of the trickle sump must actualy gass out co2.. Even if it's just a little, just for the fun of it, thought of an airpump above the trickle part of teh sump could bring back and diffuse this co2 in the tankwater.

 

[Manuel Arias]

But since in low tech tanks, was it walstad methode, not doing waterchanges and wait for bacteria to decompose organic matter and produce co2. This actualy made me think of the trickle sump must actualy gass out co2.. Even if it's just a little, just for the fun of it, thought of an airpump above the trickle part of teh sump could bring back and diffuse this co2 in the tankwater

In this sense, I think is viable and it will increase at some extend the CO2 levels. Worth trying, I think. If you do so, please, report later.

 

[zozo]

In this sense, I think is viable and it will increase at some extend the CO2 levels. Worth trying, I think. If you do so, please, report later.

Yes ofcourse i will.. Only have to think of something small enough to fit in there.. Have a very small DC 12 volt airpump i could use for that.. Now need to create a small relative water/moist tight container for it, so i can plase it in the sump above the trickle part.... Defenitely will give it a go.. I guess if the PH meter doesn't react to it it wont bring much of a difference. If i see any changes in that, it would be an eureka, even if it only is a little. All little bits help..

 

[zozo]

It is done..

Little dc12 volt coffee machine air pump in the sump above the trickle section..

Just for the test temporary rapped a almost complete role of insulation tape around it's electrical part.. Will know what it does before this starts to leak through and distroy the motor. Don't want to put to much work in it, before i know if it does some positive.

Took a venturi air difuser from an old powerhead in front of the duckbill outlet.

Bubbles like crazy.. Still can test to put the venturi a bit more further down in line, it might diffuse beter down the road in the tube. We'll see for now this is it.

I wait a few days to see if there is a slight ph drop..

 

[Manuel Arias]

Very well done, Marcel.

Just a point: Once the setup is done, a proper comparison would require to use the same system but outside of the sump. Only pH differences between both cases (pumping normal air / pumping sump air)will show you if this idea work or not.

Good luck!

Cheers,

Manuel

 

[zozo]

Thank you.. Already pumped in a lot of air before, when i made use of K1 media as moving bed before i desided to go on with a fluidized sand filter i have installed now.
And that didn't change a thing in ph, i know because i have a permanent meter in it... During daytime it's a rock steady ph 8.5 nighttime ph 8.2.

But still could run it again like that to be 100% sure, it's only a matter of putting it next to the sump.. Cable and tube is long enough. I'm more thinking of placing the difuser deeper down the line. Already see a huge number of tiny bubbles raging around, but the most of it gasses off at the surface like this. We'll see i guess if it does anything it will at least take a few days. No idea.. Maybe got lazy bacteria..

 

[zozo]

I'll be darned.. It seems to do something.. After 24 hours the ph dropped 0.1 unit.. Usualy it goes rather fast to 8.5 when the light comes looking. Now the day is almost half way and i'm stuck at 8.4.

Anybody else with a low tech trickle sump willing to test?. Actualy if you have a propper venturi difuser you do not need any electrical equipment.. In my case the air venturi is from a 1100 l p/h powerhead and my 650 l p/h sump pump which also has to push through SFB filter and a return valve looses to much presure to make this venturi work naturaly.
But if all is in correct order only a air tube from the sump to the venturi should be suficient to suck air out of the sump with the pumps pressure.

I'm still brainstorming how to make a diy low pressure air venturi for in a 16mm hose working on my pump.. Not yet found the proper materials. Also scavaging the lfs to see if these powerhead air venturis are sold as spare part. I need one fitting my pumps power specs.

For now it ran with the venturi diffuser at the duckbill outlet.. I replaced it with a glass co2 diffuser in the tank to get smaller bubbles deeper down into the water..