Mold in fert dosing bottles.

[Weslp00]

Guys,

Seem to be getting mould growing in my Macro dosing bottles. Its floating on the top and looking ugly !

Got myself some Potassium Sorbate and Ascorbic Acid.

So question is what are the amounts to add to a 1litre mix of dry salts in solution?

Any ideas please ??

 

[G H Nelson]

Rough guide is
0.5g E300 Ascorbic Acid
0.2g E202 Potassium Sorbate
in 500ml of water.....this ratio is for a All in One solution!
Best if you use RO or De-ionsed water to try and stop mould!
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm
hoggie

 

[xim]

I've tried using Potassium Sorbate and Ascorbic Acid in Macros solution (KNO3+KH2PO4) many times. But it has never worked. The solution will turn pink and another form of mould or bacteria will appear. I think this is probably the reason:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_sorbate

"Some molds (notably some Trichoderma and Penicillium strains) and yeasts are able to detoxify sorbates by decarboxylation, producing piperylene (1,3-pentadiene). The pentadiene manifests as a typical odor of kerosene or petroleum.[13]"

Even lowering the pH of the solution further didn't help. So now I'm using 30ml of 3% H2O2 (or 15ml for 6% H2O2) per 500ml of Macros to preserve it and it works. There will be bubbles forming from H2O2 oxydising things though. So may not be suitable for configurations that uses dosing pumps since there will be air pockets in the line.

Funny thing is Potassium Sorbate and Ascorbic Acid combo works well for Micros and all-in-one mix. I guess Boric Acid or Borax in the Micros may help inhibit that kind of mould.

PS: I use 1 gram of Ascorbic Acid and 0.5 gram of Potassium Sorbate per 500 ml. Because less than that it wouldn't work for me. May be I'm not hygienic enough.

 

[ian_m]

I feel sure something is wrong here....never heard reports of the macro going mouldy. (this is UKAPS so mould rather than US mold ).

Are you sure you are not confusing micro, which can go mouldy, with macro.

Potassium nitrate is a very good preservative, thus will prevent mould and bacteria growth exceptionally well, which is why we have never heard of this before. Potassium nitrate and sodium nitrate are used as preservatives in cooked meat.

What type of water are you using, tap, boiled, RO, distilled etc. Hard tap water can cause the salts to precipitate out, so try using other water. I have 22' Clarke water (F hard...) and use boiled water, though I have not seen any precipitation when I use tap water as someone has pinched my kettle water to make a cup of tea .

I once accidentally left a litre of macro solution on the window sill for a week, in the sunshine, after a water change, and observed no change, as would be expected from a strong solution of inorganic salts.

Did you get your EI salts from a reputable source ? Perform a nitrate test (one time a test kit can be used) to verify the nitrate is in fact a nitrate and not some other cheaper salt.

 

[Zeus.]

I had some mould in my mAcro tubing after my 2 week hols, which I put down to my PLC programming error on my side Holiday setting gave no ferts when it should off been 50% dose. Put it down to background light and the solution being static for two weeks. Then when I checked the container a few weeks later had some mould in the container too. So flushed the line out and made freash mAcro solution. I have only used Boiled water or RO water to make up the solution too, plus was a new container when I made it up.
The other thing which my of contributed to the mould in the container was I had put my LED drivers six off them in with the ferts as a temp measure

so due to heat did leave the door slightly ajar. So the heat and a little light wouldn't off helped keep the mould at bay either. Hence the reason I was watching this thread with interest. Do plan to replace the tubing as I have plenty and make the tubing light proof. Black tape.

Get my salts from Aquarium Plant Food UK which is the same as you Ian. Was planning on sending you a pm to ask you about the mould. Will do a nitrate test asap, but away till friday

 

[Weslp00]

I am also getting my macros from Aquarium Plant Food. I dose the Mag Sulphate separately because I was getting a reaction with all 3 Macro chems together.
It forms as a white scum on the Mag Sulphate and the other container with the other 2 chemicals in it ( can never remember their names..doh! )
And I am using RO water for the dilution.
What gives then? Could it be the purity of the chemicals?
The dosing bottles are 3 litre so the stuff is stored in a high volume but I am dosing 44oml a day using EI so I do get through it ! Its a 1100 litre tank.
Its hidden under the tank so there is no light or heat to upset the mixes.
Need to get to the bottom of this because the white gunge might take over !

What can we do?
Thanks for the answers guys ... really helpful as usual o

 

[Weslp00]

Just done a nitrate dip test on my pot nitrate and pot phosphate mix and the nitrate test strip went bright purple...so loads of nitrate in the dosing mix. So why the mould in there and also in the mag sulphate which I dose separately ?????

 

[xim]

What can we do?

If you have liquid carbon (1.5-2% Glutaraldehyde) at hand, try adding it at 40ml per litre. I've not used this but 20ml per 500ml is a popular ratio that people use to preserve their ferts.

Then you may wonder if you can use liquid carbon (Seachem Excel here) in place of water in the mix. So that you can dose fertilisers and LC at the same time, from the same container. The answer from Seachem is you should not. But that is a predictable answer from a company regarding using their product with something out of their control by the way.

http://www.seachem.com/support/foru...using-excel-in-pre-mixed-fertilizer-solutions

Personally, I'm interested in using Propylparaben but currently using H2O2 suits my usage quite well.

 

[ian_m]

To things to note here.

Someone did test with micros & Excel (and Gluteraldehyde) and found it did react with the chelates. Not sure if it was a direct reaction with the chelate or Excel (& gluteraldehyde) breaking down due to low pH necessary to keep the chelates chelated.

Also some magnesium sulphate, sold as foot soak or skin treatment, sometimes has talc and/or potassium ferrocyanide as anticaking agents. This is what causes the white foam/deposit that goes mouldy when dissolved in water.

 

[Weslp00]

That's an interesting idea about the liquid co2 but it could start getting expensive especially with the quantities I use.
Anyway things are getting ugly in my dosing containers. From the pics you can see the Micros are clear in container 1 but there are monsters in the pot nitrate/ pot phosphate container 2 and also in the mag sulphate container 3.
I am beginning to think the ferts are compromised with something as mentioned above. As stated nothing should grow in macros just by the nature of the stuff.
I am going to send a message to Aquarium Plant Food and ask them.
Also a good idea would be to try Macros from another vendor... Anyone know a good vendor that sells them???..please let me know

 

[Zeus.]

Nice setup WeslpOO. Maybe a more concentrated solution would help! adjust the dose OFC.

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface

 

[Weslp00]

thanks for the compliment Zeus.. its low tech and the other half of the "low tech" bit is all under the stairs.. c02/filters/led drivers etc.. No room for the vacuum cleaner either !
Anyway I emailed UKPF and John came straight back with a hygiene issue. In other words wash out the storage containers on a regular basis, fair enough...AND use Sorbate and ascorbic acid to keep to bug monster under control. Appears that mould WILL grow in Macros if left long enough !
What do you all think of that I wonder ???

 

[Zeus.]

hygiene issue

Well Its our own fault we should be preparing our solutions in sterile rooms with gloves and masks on . Mine was done with new bottles and tubing new pumps etc. But I did prepare a good 4litres which at full EI dose should last 3months which retrospectively is too long. Plenty of time for the bugs to work there way down the tubing from the tank.
Yes there is the rollers to get past in the pump which will slow them down a bit but just needs time - after all with a Rimmed tank with glass covers theirs always plenty of humidity under the glass ideal for bugs. Just the place where the tubing ends. Bet it happens less with rimless open tanks.

In other words wash out the storage containers on a regular basis

How regular did he suggest ?

Think it would be fine to make a large solution up and leave it in a sealed container for some time in cool dark place. Its having it attached with the tube in that makes the difference. Just flush pipes though monthly and wash clean bottles out leaving dry for some time too. So Better hygiene. Makes sense when you think about it

 

[Weslp00]

Well I would say more regular than I have.. I never thought to clean the storage containers and just kept topping up. But its only been a month or so on the dosing pump so I'm still not convinced..
I will try the sorbate preservative in the macros with a bit of ascorbic acid to lower the Ph and report back.. fingers crossed !
Cant be doing anything wrong as my bristle nose's have just knocked out another load of little'ens.. anyone want some..if I can catch'em ..

 

[Zeus.]

Are your pumps twin or quad rollers Weslp00?

 

[Weslp00]

I am using a Kamoer doser... its not the most accurate thing for dosing high volume but it certainly takes all the paiin away on a daily basis!

Its got triple roller heads... maybe the bugs are lurking in there ???

 

[Zeus.]

Well the bugs will get passed the rollers with time as they will be on the pumps tubing and the rollers stop at a different spot each time. A two roller would be worse as the fluid tens to drain back to the container. Triple if better. Think we are both suffering from the big container lets fill it up then I'll be good for weeks. Think we would be better to just put enough to last till next WC day. Purging the lines with H2O2 will help too or miltons, need a good fush with water after using miltons

 

[Weslp00]

Good point.. so we are assuming that our problem bugs could be coming from the tank and then on to the pump and containers like a creeping death ! The outlets for my dosing tubes are above the water line by about 3/4 inch ...can the bugs still invade via the damp atmosphere in the tank I wonder ???

I am going to try a pinch of preservative in each container when it arrives as APFUK recommend and see if that works..

I like the fact that I can put 2 litres of ferts in on each fill and forget about it! Thats what all the expense was for !

 

[Zeus.]

Good point.. so we are assuming that our problem bugs could be coming from the tank and then on to the pump and containers like a creeping death ! The outlets for my dosing tubes are above the water line by about 3/4 inch ...can the bugs still invade via the damp atmosphere in the tank I wonder ???

Makes sense when you think about it, my glass lids/covers are always dropping with water. If I do a WC with the lids closed the plants dont need spraying with water at all the humidity is quite high. So the high humidity are between the glass and water will be a niche eco system for the air borne spores, plus the ones in are tank. My Ferts outlets are not in a well aired spot.

Like yours about 1.5cm from waters surface, in a humid area where any spores can easily get to the macros inlet tube and nutrients and away they go. They get to the pump grow on tubing roller moves grow a bit further few doses and they get to the container presto.

I am going to try a pinch of preservative in each container when it arrives as APFUK recommend and see if that works..

Which did they advise? do they sell it?

I like the fact that I can put 2 litres of ferts in on each fill and forget about it! Thats what all the expense was for !

Me too, with 5Litre bottles too. But we was after not having to dose daily manually, If we just put less in and top up at WC time with preservative in, the issue should be less better still if we disinfect the container each time and occasionally flush/disinfect the lines should be able to keep on top off it.

My containers had been under tank for 3months with the same mix in it, so not surprised when I think about it

 

[Weslp00]

Yes I think that maybe pushing the boat out a bit and the grey monster must be getting in from the tank and breeding

I will try the preservative which arrived today from APFUK and check back and advise. But i'll be damned if I am

gonna clean everything out every week !