What else can I try?! Becoming distraught!

[Tom Raffield]

Afternoon everyone,

I have been battling with my tank for almost a year now having moved to my much larger 260L tank (upgrade from a 125L). The first few months were fine but since then it has been a war of attrition with algae. I have tried adjusting my EI dosage, an H2O2 treatment, adding more water circulation pumps and ensuring a high CO2 provision through my pressurised system. Today I returned from a week away with work hoping to see an improvement or as a minimum nothing getting worse but things are going further downhill; I am starting to get quite upset and irritated about it all as I can not see what else I can try. I have attached photos of some of the areas that are being impacted upon - the algae (or cyano) are now appearing on all plants and in increasing quantity on a daily basis! The glass gains green spot algae but in minimal amounts which I scrub off weekly. I should also mention that a month or ago I had to pull up and bin a lot of my backing plant (red in colour) as it appeared to be being 'eaten' by snails (see previous thread); I am planning on pulling up the rest with my next water change.

In an effort to keep things brief, this is a run down of my tank:
Juwel Vision 260L;
Stock Juwel filter (outlet aimed across back of the tank);
Half gravel substrate and half eco-complete;
EI dosing of micro and macro nutrients (25/30ml on alternate days);
40% water change weekly;
CO2 in green on drop checker (on an hour before lights and off an hour before turn off);
Lighting period of 7 hours using stock lighting and no reflectors;
Hydor Koralia circulation pump for 250L+ tank (aimed from rear top left towards front middle);
Second Hydor Koralia pump not currently in use (smaller than the one above).

As mentioned above I have attempted to play with my ferts, circulation H202 and CO2. All may still be wrong but the only thing I have not yet changed is my two light tubes. These are almost a year old and are the tubes the tank came with. I have two new arcadia tubes ready to go and will happily throw them into play (with reflectors) to see if this helps the problem. It is the only element of the tank that has not yet been tweaked. Is a light change likely to help or hinder me at this stage?

And what else can I do? I have almost got to the point where I want to stop CO2 altogether, bin a large chunk of my plants and try and go back to a low tech tank with very limited planting. All the plants in my tank were considered 'easy to grow' with CO2 'not essential' but something is going wrong somewhere!

Any and all advice is appreciated and if required I will try and give more information. Thank you.

 

[Silviu Man]

Hi,
I had same problem in 100 litters aqvarium. My solution was : 6 Amano, 20 RCS, 6 Oto and 8 Spiral Horn. No GSA from that time and the wall of aqvarium look clear. I am cleaning its once in two-three months. And my Anubias is shining!

 

[Tim Harrison]

For starters try reducing your photoperiod to 6 hours, don't add reflectors and don't change your tubes.
Ensure your drop checker is lime green at lights on and all the way till lights off. For instance, my CO2 comes on 3hrs before lights on and goes off 2hrs before lights off.
Keep on top of tank husbandry to keep it as clean as possible - more water changes; try a couple of 50% changes per week and perhaps think about cleaning your filter media more often.
Also, remove the worst infested leaves.

 

[ian_m]

More filtration is needed despite your powerheads. The juwel internal filters are not really adequate for use alone in a high tech tank. Something like jble1500 or 1900 at least is required. Reduce lighting period to say 4-5 hours maybe reduce light levels with foil rings on the tubes to give plants a chance and beat algae.

 

[alto]

In contradiction

1) put the reflectors back, change the tubes if you prefer the new color spectrum of the Arcadia
- it's a tall tank & PAR will be low at substrate (I have 55cm high tanks)
BUT I would reduce light period to 5-6 hours.
CO2 schedule would depend on how much ambient light

2) the stock filter does just fine IF hardscape is not considerable - look at Jewel display tanks (unlike most companies they still grow in the aquascapes & transport to trades shows such as Interzoo) & Tropica's Inspiration page - lighting etc information is available for these tanks & most scapes are done with stock jewel filters, optional jewel reflectors & sometimes optional jewel light bars

You don't mention a plant list - photos seem to be swords & crypts, you definitely want some easy, fast stems to help balance the tank

Crypts & swords will want some root tabs in the Eco-Complete as it's not really a rich substrate in the style of the aquarium soils

If/when tank growth is reduced, adjust your EI dosing - most plant nutrients have an "optimal range" as well as ranges that are too low or too high (resulting in biochemical transport inhibition, enzyme inhibition, or even toxicity) - if you're not seeing healthy new growth at appropriate rates on your plants with established root systems, something is amiss
This is a separate issue from algae that may also be boundoing about the tank

What fish & algae crew are in the tank?

 

[xim]

Yeah, two bulbs without reflectors is not very much light for this sized tank. Sure you can lower the amount of light or shorten the lighting period if your plants are low-light demanding. But for a tank having problem with this light level, there probably are things that can be improved elsewhere. May be flow, cleanliness (feeding/fish waste), gas exchange (oxygen at night), algae crews, etc.

 

[Silviu Man]

Can you place a pics with entire tank?

 

[Tom Raffield]

Thanks for the responses. Some useful food for thought. In reply:
- Please find attached some whole tank photos.
- I feed the fish every other day and only a pinch.
- I clean filter sponges every 4-6 months on rotation.
- I remove leaves when they become too covered to be tolerated!
- I have 5 amano shrimp, 1 bulldog plec, 1 SAE, 3 ottos, 2 julii corys, 13 neons, 5 harlequins, 4 cherry barbs, 4 rummy nose tetras.
- There is a good flow in the tank but filtration may well be an issue.
- Due to plants I am unable to gravel vac.
- I have added root tabs throughout the substrate and plan on doing so every 6 months or so (is this enough?)
- The tank is the middle of a 35 foot room which is well protected form direct sunlight but is naturally a light room during the day.

Plants:
- Alternanthera cardinakis (snail damaged and being removed in stages)
- Micranthemum Monte Carlo
- Lysimachia nummularia
- various crypts and swords

I will happily spend money where required and if filtration is the issue then i'll look into it; how would I begin to change to an external filter and would I run two at once? What 'easy' plants do people recommend? Ideally I would like some other colour in the back right of the tank but will try anything that will help!

I think too many changes all at once will not be a good idea so would welcome suggestions as to the order in which changes could be made. Who knew I would struggle this much. Life was easier with my Rio 125 with very limited plants and no tech! My 260 does look great though when things work!!

 

[Tim Harrison]

I think too many changes all at once will not be a good idea

It's not...
Just reduce your photoperiod for now and try to stabilise your CO2, I'm assuming you have 2 x T5 tubes, which should be plenty. But first get the basics right.
The basics required to maintain a planted tank, and not farm algae, are...

1. Reset your EI back to basics, a la Tom Barr, and forget about it, that's the whole point, so you can concentrate on getting your CO2 and light balanced...that's a given
2. Another given is cleaning your whole filter media at least once a month. No rotation just rinse it under a tepid tap, it'll be fine.
3. Regular and substantial water changes are a given as well, at least 1 x 50% every week. But in your case I'd do at least 2 x 50% until your tank settles down and becomes more robust.
4. Personally, I don't think Juwel filters are up to the job of a high-energy planted tank and I've removed two from my tanks in the past...if you choose to do so buy a filter that turns over 10x the tanks capacity an hour to replace it...sounds like a cliche at this point but that's pretty much a given as well. The 10x flow rule is primarily to ensure that your CO2 is evenly distributed throughout your tank along with nutrients.
5. high plant biomass will also help a great deal, so add more plants; you can float fast growing stems for now; once the tank stabilises they can be removed and replaced if you like. They work in several ways, inhibit algae through allelopathy, reduce light penetration, reduce organics.

Which like I said in the beginning just leaves you with the task of getting the CO2 and light balanced; follow my earlier advice.
It's easy really so don't get distraught...you can do this

P.S. In short, the build up of organics and too much light are the main causes of algae, along with poor CO2 flow and distribution and inadequate inorganic nutrient dosing.

P.P.S if you're still confused check out the Tutorial section, it contains some very informative articles

 

[Silviu Man]

I also believe you have a problem with filtration. Although you don't have too many fish there, organic matter comes not only from fish and fish food, but also from death plants parts. Maybe you don't see it but I ensure you, there are some. If I may give you an advice, then that would be to replace the internal filter with an external one (an Eheim professional 4+250 or a JBL Cristal Profi e1501 should be enough). In external filter I would replace all filter medium (except the top ones) with biological filter materials, like Siporax or/and Matrix. On the IN of the filter, a prefilter could solve mechanical filtration. This way you can clean prefilter together with each water change, and the external filter and the tubes, only once in 3-4 months. A surface skimmer could help too.

Try also to apply a light program with a pause of 3-4 hours in the middle of the program . There are many reports that show this way the algae are slowing their growth. I apply such a program, in a 100 liters Diversa aqvarium where the light program is 10 hours per day (8.30-11.30 then after 14.30-21.30). I have a not very complicated CO2 addition equipment (just 2xTropica System 60!). As light, I have two original 2x18w with two Hobby reflectors. If this have any relevance, I use a JBL CristalProfi e901, with Siporax and Seachem Matrix as biological filter medium, with internal Eheim prefilter on the IN and Eheim skimmer. As fish, I have 8 Rasbora Espei, 5 Microrasbora Galaxy, 8 Black neon and 16 Boraras Urophtalmoides plus shrimps, including two Atyopsis Gaboensis (a little too many, I know). BUT, in my tank are many easy plants! Maybe this can make the difference.

 

[Tom Raffield]

Thank you for taking the time to respond and for the suggestions.

Yesterday I reduced my lighting time to 6 hours and also extended the length of time my CO2 is on to 3 hours before lights and 1.5 hours before lights off.

I am going to do a 50% water change today and clean all of my filter media. As you aware it is just the stock filter (with two cirax as I have added some). I will also remove some of the leaves that are now beyond help.

With regard to resetting my EI dosing - would this simply mean heading back to what was suggested on the info that came with my kit from 'aquarium plant food'? According to that I need 10ml of micro/macro for every 50 litres of water. That means I need a minimum of 40/50ml; this does seem quite a lot to me.

I will also have a look at external filters. What are your experiences with these? There is just something about having a filter sitting out of the tank that worries me (if something goes wrong). When I make the change should I leave both running together to enable the external to build up its bacteria load? And should I just empty the Juwel one after a while or leave the filter media present?

What suggestions of easy plants do people have? I buy all my plants from 'aqua essentials' so any suggestions from what they provide would be great.

 

[alto]

I'd just focus on increased maintenance before adding an external canister filter (I use Eheim & love them but ran stock filters back when I had Jewel tanks - all you need is good flow not lots of flow, very few plants are thriving in riverine habits )
Run both for filter for 3-5 weeks, or transfer Jewel media to new filter so tank remains "cycled"

Is your tap water very hard? In soft water you're much more likely to experience adverse effects on plant growth re excess nutrients ... any type of fertilization should reflect the degree/activity of plants in the tank.

What are you using for Root tabs? These are usually added every 3-4 months or 6 months depending .....

Any leaves with significant algae are likely no longer positive contributors to the plant - it's recommended to remove damaged leaves, old leaves (most leaves have finite lifetimes)
Clean algae from hardscape
Add liquid carbon (Seachem Excel etc) daily (if possible) for it's algicide effects, you can also "spot dose" (with a syringe or paint with a brush if above water line during water change) stubborn algae areas ( though most plants aren't too keen on this either)

Often rotala's will tell you if the ambient light is sufficient for plants to be actively growing - leaves will "open" for growth, "cup" when "done" ( I have some Rotala 'Vietnam H'ra' that is the best indicator ever ) - i have one tank that runs low CO2 during daylight hours & increased CO2 during lighting period (which runs in the evening for tank viewing but during summer months should really coincide with morning daylight as room light is very strong between 6-11 am)

 

[roadmaster]

Stock lighting you mention running for your 260 l consist's of what?
Stock lighting for my 260 l was two 32 watt T8 bulb's which I would consider low light.
Might also wonder where in the tank the drop checker is located since this seems to be what is being used to gauge possible content.
Drop checker's mounted high in the water column, would appear possibly more green/Lime green(good) ,than same drop checker mounted lower, for the gas will always rise up and out.
Might move it down lower while adjusting CO2 or looking to it as a gauge of sort's.

 

[Tom Raffield]

Stock lighting you mention running for your 260 l consist's of what?
Stock lighting for my 260 l was two 32 watt T8 bulb's which I would consider low light.
Might also wonder where in the tank the drop checker is located since this seems to be what is being used to gauge possible content.
Drop checker's mounted high in the water column, would appear possibly more green/Lime green(good) ,than same drop checker mounted lower, for the gas will always rise up and out.
Might move it down lower while adjusting CO2 or looking to it as a gauge of sort's.

I have two T5 tubes in the tank at the moment produced by Juwel. One nature and one day - there is not a lot I can do about that tough? Adding reflectors may help get the full benefit of the tubes I have. The new ones I have bought are Arcadia tubes which are sold to fit the Juwel systems.

My drop checker was high in the tank when I started but I have now moved it to half way up the side tank wall furthest from the CO2 diffuser. It is registering as green from lights on to off, now that I have tweaked my lighting period and CO2 times. I could move it lower still if half way is too high.

I am thinking about these plants, what do you think?
https://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/hygrophila-polysperma-indian-swampweed-p-4263.html?cPath=255_447
https://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/vallisneria-spiralis-red-p-6962.html?cPath=255_588

Any other suggestions from the site? I need fast growing plants that will mop up nutrients and are easy to grow.

 

[PARAGUAY]

hygrophila polysperma would be my choice for a fast growing stem and UKAPS sponsors plants would be good quality

 

[cookie.dou]

There's a lot going on and some great advice from the people above. Just a note about CO2 - don't rely on a drop checker, it doesn't tell the whole story. Even if you have adequate CO2 your plants might not be growing well (due to various issues). You didn't mention gH in your post, I have always had success with 3-4 degrees of gH - what's your tank at? I use equilibrium. If you see your plants start to pearl within 1-2 hours, I think that's a better indicator of CO2 level. What I would do is actually start CO2 earlier (2-3 hours?) but less intense.

 

[Tom Raffield]

There's a lot going on and some great advice from the people above. Just a note about CO2 - don't rely on a drop checker, it doesn't tell the whole story. Even if you have adequate CO2 your plants might not be growing well (due to various issues). You didn't mention gH in your post, I have always had success with 3-4 degrees of gH - what's your tank at? I use equilibrium. If you see your plants start to pearl within 1-2 hours, I think that's a better indicator of CO2 level. What I would do is actually start CO2 earlier (2-3 hours?) but less intense.

Not checked for gH so can not provide info on that one. With regard to pearling - the plants in the tank have never pearled! Should this be happening every day? If so, my CO2 must be way off! The bubble counter is the region of 6-8 bubbles per second and runs through a JBL diffuser tower.

 

[cookie.dou]

Not checked for gH so can not provide info on that one. With regard to pearling - the plants in the tank have never pearled! Should this be happening every day? If so, my CO2 must be way off! The bubble counter is the region of 6-8 bubbles per second and runs through a JBL diffuser tower.

Just to give you another reference point, I've never had more than 3 bubbles per second and my plants (especially the carpeting plants) always pearl with in 1-3 hours of lights turning on...

Just a note - plants grow better in lower pH environments. I've noticed for my tanks that my plants take well to around 4 gH (I often let this rise to like 8/9 before lowering it again). Your CO2 might not be off - well, I don't really know what's off. My suggestion would be to change 1 thing at a time per week and see if you notice differences. For example, this week you reduce light period to 5 hours, see what happens. If plants do better, algae is limited - you're on the right track. The next week, start CO2 earlier, see if anything changes. If plants grow better - then again you're on the right track. After plants grow better (you have a larger mass) - try increasing light period by 0.5 hour increments and see what happens.

 

[Tom Raffield]

Just to give you another reference point, I've never had more than 3 bubbles per second and my plants (especially the carpeting plants) always pearl with in 1-3 hours of lights turning on...

Just a note - plants grow better in lower pH environments. I've noticed for my tanks that my plants take well to around 4 gH (I often let this rise to like 8/9 before lowering it again). Your CO2 might not be off - well, I don't really know what's off. My suggestion would be to change 1 thing at a time per week and see if you notice differences. For example, this week you reduce light period to 5 hours, see what happens. If plants do better, algae is limited - you're on the right track. The next week, start CO2 earlier, see if anything changes. If plants grow better - then again you're on the right track. After plants grow better (you have a larger mass) - try increasing light period by 0.5 hour increments and see what happens.

3 bubbles a second! Wow, with my 260L tank I have always had 6/8 and sometimes even higher to try and get enough CO2 into the tank. Yet this yields no plants pearling at all. None of my plants are fast growers though and I want buy some imminently as mentioned above; I do have a carpet plant though and this never pearls either. It is difficult to gauge whether the plants are growing well as they rarely change much. My swords however are generating new growth frequently (as frequently as expected from a sword) so I believe everything to be growing as it should. I will have a better understanding of this when I put my fast growers in at the back of the tank - also hoping they act as a nutrient sponge to remove excess nutrients.

I guess my tap water could be a cause of pH and gH changes so maybe I need to alter these somehow.

Last week I reduced the photoperiod and also extended the duration of the CO2 being on. With my maintenance this week I cleaned all the filter media as these had not been done for a while (they were super grubby), I have now added a note in my diary to do the filter every month. I am also sticking to the 40ml macro/micro dosing in an attempt to get the basics right.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

I run higher bps prob around 5/6 bubs a sec which means absolutely nothing. Size of bubbles makes a big difference so isn't really something you can compare. I very rarely see my plants pearl if at all but I personally think you need to have quite high lighting to produce pearling. The plants need to be growing so fast to super saturate the tank with o2 which I tend to find can't be achieved with medium lighting and a well stocked tank. The fish and filter are reducing the oxygen faster than the plants can produce it so never gets to the point of saturation. False pearling is when the water was already saturated with o2 to start with like on wc day. Plastic plants can often be seen pearling on WC day. It's nice but not a necessity or a gauge of if things are right.