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Testing parameters for EI

Andrew Butler

Andrew Butler

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2016
Messages
1,740
Location
Banbury, Oxfordshire
I will be honest I haven't fully got my head around the EI method but am understanding the basics!
How do other people go about testing? - By that I mean
How often do you test if you do at all?
What test kits do people use? - brands would be nice, I know hanna make some excellent handheld test kits but not for nitrate or potassium.
 
Andrew Butler said:
I will be honest I haven't fully got my head around the EI method but am understanding the basics!
How do other people go about testing? - By that I mean
How often do you test if you do at all?
What test kits do people use? - brands would be nice, I know hanna make some excellent handheld test kits but not for nitrate or potassium.
Click to expand...

Hi,

The whole idea of EI dosing is to have an 'abundance' of fertilisers. This ensures a balance within the tank of nutrients so there's not one element within the spectrum of nutrients (e.g. Phosphates) that's lacking. This ensures that plants have more than enough to feed off. You must remember that algae is caused by too LITTLE ferts. We have all been brainwashed that too MUCH ferts causes algae which is just tripe. This was fine to ensure that we handed over our hard earned cash by LFS for pointless things like phosphate removers. Think of how it was told and believed for years that the earth was flat! So in conclusion nutrients/ferts do not cause algae so you do not need to test for them. Again having an abundance is the whole idea of it. Other elements like too little flow or too little co2 cause algae...

Do a weekly 50% water change or more and you be fine as this ensures ammonia is keep at a minimum and flushes the 'build up' of nutrients

Hope this helps
Matt


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Andrew Butler said:
What about nitrate? Too much of this can be a bad thing can't it?
Do people not keep an eye on things with tests?
Click to expand...

Nope, not with this hobby. Nitrogen is the second most important element in the planted tank. Again this is just a myth. Plants LOVE nitrates. If it's within 20-40 it will still pose no problems what so ever to your fish or inverts. With your 50% weekly water changes will reset it each week. If you've heard the saying 'snake oil' then bear this in mind with this topic. Too little nitrates can have serious consequences like Cyanobacteria, ever had that? Nasty stuff... Companies want your money and will claim to anything just to get their hands on your hard earned cash! Me included used to spend lots on such kits but not anymore. I've took a hell of a lot of advise from this forum and it's been most helpful. I've experienced a whole raft of issues - you name it I've had it with this hobby but my tank has never looked better. It's a learning curve. Took 10 months to finally tweak my current tank. Test kits are just colourful Lucifers piss!

Another thing to bear is BALANCE of all parameters.

Kind regards
Matt


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Reread my last comments as I covered that. If you're not convinced then yeah go out and buy your test kits but prepared to be disappointed.


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I did read it (hence the exclamation marks) maybe I'm just over cautious of parameters and testing, had marines before so I'll use that as an excuse!
 
Andrew Butler said:
I did read it (hence the exclamation marks) maybe I'm just over cautious of parameters and testing, had marines before so I'll use that as an excuse!
Click to expand...

Oh right! Ok. Fair dos. Freshwater is a world away from keeping marines and fully understandable with your concerns as they are most definitely affected from nitrates phosphates and silica and such. You've got to remember that in a tank with no plants nitrates phosphates and the rest pose an issue like they do in a marine tank with corals and such but with plants it's not as plants eat up all these elements so it aint an issue. A tank without plants algae will thrive. But like I said with inverts, if EI is safe for the likes of shrimps then it'll be fine with fish even of a sensitive nature. I keep Rams which are the one of the most sensitive fish going and I have no problems with them. Remember fish in the wild do not live in pristine clinical conditions to how we keep them, they live in dirty and sadly polluted water ways with the addition of regular sewage from the locals.


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Matty123 said:
Remember fish in the wild do not live in pristine clinical conditions to how we keep them, they live in dirty and sadly polluted water ways with the addition of regular sewage from the locals.
Click to expand...

I think you need to read some of the published scientific factual! reports & articles of fishes before making such sweeping generalizations - in reality, it's our tanks that are the "sewers" compared to the pristine natural waters that many fish species inhabit
While there are reports of some fishes living in the conditions you claim, these are the minority rather than the "rule"
Habitat contamination (& physical destruction) from local industry & farming are major contributors to species loss/extinction

Some examples of factual fish literature:

Ichthyological Exploration of Freshwaters

Vertebrate Zoology

Raffles Bulletin of Zoology Supplemen

Japanese Journal of Ichthyology

Systematic Biology

Interciencia


"Test kits" are similarly based upon chemical methodologies that have been used to provide accurate & precise analyses, again there are many developmental & usage articles which are published in peer reviewed scientific media


Plant biochemistry research indicates (strong) preferred uptake of ammonia-N over nitrate-N, in addition any transport & enzyme processes almost always exhibit inhibition effects, so "more" is not always "better"
 
alto said:
I think you need to read some of the published scientific factual! reports & articles of fishes before making such sweeping generalizations - in reality, it's our tanks that are the "sewers" compared to the pristine natural waters that many fish species inhabit
While there are reports of some fishes living in the conditions you claim, these are the minority rather than the "rule"
Habitat contamination (& physical destruction) from local industry & farming are major contributors to species loss/extinction

Some examples of factual fish literature:

Ichthyological Exploration of Freshwaters

Vertebrate Zoology

Raffles Bulletin of Zoology Supplemen

Japanese Journal of Ichthyology

Systematic Biology

Interciencia


"Test kits" are similarly based upon chemical methodologies that have been used to provide accurate & precise analyses, again there are many developmental & usage articles which are published in peer reviewed scientific media


Plant biochemistry research indicates (strong) preferred uptake of ammonia-N over nitrate-N, in addition any transport & enzyme processes almost always exhibit inhibition effects, so "more" is not always "better"
Click to expand...

Apologies! no means to generalise. Maybe I ought to have took time with my response on the conditions that fish live in the wild. Fully agree with what you say.


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My personal experience with test kits is that they make you paranoid about values... if you do it too often it causes you to keep making changes without giving time the the tank to actually react to those changes... it drives you mad!!

I stopped worrying too much about water tests when I spent a couple of weeks in the hospital and came home to the best looking plants I ever had! Nowadays I just pay attention to the plants and fish. They will (in most cases) give you all the signs that something is wrong... and then the water tests can help you figure what problem it is (when you don't know it right away).

They are also useful if you are fine tuning your EI recipe to get the nutrient values you want, but in the end, you can't also rely too much on the values you get from the tests... so try take them with a pinch of salt at all times.
 
I must confess to being a test kit 'geek' and at the moment I have for nitrates - two API kits, a JBL pro-scan strip test and a very, very expensive CHEMet test kit. The CHEMet test kit is for checking the others out of interest but mainly I just look at trends and increase/lower dosing as needed.

The nitrates I find I like around 20ppm, I think my tetras do better.

Mainly I use a nitrates and phosphates test kit and adjust as needed.
 
Delapool said:
Mainly I use a nitrates and phosphates test kit and adjust as needed.
Click to expand...
Which is an excellent way to fail at planted tanks.
alto said:
in reality, it's our tanks that are the "sewers" compared to the pristine natural waters that many fish species inhabit
Click to expand...
The reason your tank is a sewer is typically because you overfeed and do not do enough water changes. My high nitrate, high phosphate tanks are pristine.

alto said:
Habitat contamination (& physical destruction) from local industry & farming are major contributors to species loss/extinction
Click to expand...
While this is certainly true, it is a false assumption that simply having a high NO3/PO4 tank equates to the habitat contamination. There are many substances that contribute to contamination and those substances that are truly responsible for contamination, such as organic waste are easily controlled via water changes.

Cheers,
 
I'm advocating the following:
1. That people do not carry on with hysterical arguments about how dosing high nutrient levels equate to contamination.
2. That test kits are completely inaccurate and they lie constantly.
3. That you should follow a dosing program that provides a concrete set of numbers that ENSURES that the plants are being fed properly.
4. That if you dose (or don't dose) based on the inaccurate and inconsistent data being provided by a test kit, you run a serious risk of underdosing and traditionally, that has resulted in poor plant health which then leads to algal blooms.
5. That when the plants suffer poor health due to inadvertent dosing, combined with the hysteria of nutrient "contamination" the hobbyist invariably blames the nutrients for their algal blooms.
6. That when the hobbyist blames nutrients for their plants poor health and algal blooms there is a typical tendency to withhold nutrients even more, setting up a vicious cycle of paranoia and poor plant health.

That's what I'm advocating.

Cheers,
 
Right, so how does all that tie back to your statement "Which is an excellent way to fail at planted tanks." regarding my post?
 
(Sorry for double post - exceeded time limit reviewing thread for understanding on post 16).

If I'm understanding correctly, it is being implied that using test kits will definitively result in the failure of a planted tank.
 
Delapool said:
Right, so how does all that tie back to your statement "Which is an excellent way to fail at planted tanks." regarding my post?
Click to expand...
Here is how it ties in.

The implication is not so much that using test kits will "definitely" result in failure, but that success using test kits is a Lottery. It could work out that the combination of actual values in your tank are high and that the test kit readings are false low. This combination would work out OK because the plants would be receiving an abundant supply of nutrients even if you were being miserly with the dosing.

Far too often however (and we've seen this consistently over the years) the case is just the opposite, where the test kit give a ridiculously high false reading while at the same time the actual nutrient values are ridiculously low. Here is a typical scenario where the hobbyist exhibits nutrient paranoia and draws unrealistic conclusions.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ferts-causing-high-nitrate.16092/

The object lesson in that thread is that you cannot really trust test kit readings and NO3 test kits are at the top of the list of poor value and inaccuracy. PO4 test kits are not far behind.

So using test kits to determine your dosing typically result in failure for the unlucky and is a wash for the lucky. I'd always prefer to be lucky than good, but the problem with being lucky is that you do not learn and the good luck reinforces a poor understanding of nutrient dynamics . When luck runs out then the hobbyist will really be in trouble because their previous good luck will encourage them to think in the wrong direction.

Cheers,
 
Fascinating - thank-you for the reply.

My experience has been different.

First up as someone used to samples going through laboratories (with associated quality control), I'd agree these test kits are not the same quality. And the difference between the API (both kits I own), $200 cheMETs kit and JBL kit can be up to 20ppm nitrates. And I've seen several threads reporting wrong high nitrates off API kits (possibly more so in summer heat).

Against that, I've seen several hundred threads at least successfully using test kits for cycling and planted tanks as well as for general purpose. My own experience is that my test kit correctly reads my tap water and shows nitrate trends in tank. Such that I don't believe I have precisely 20ppm nitrates in tank but if I ever got that in tap water I would certainly be checking with the water company rather than disregarding it. In addition, I find that high readings are high readings. Also saltwater tanks and pool / aquarium shops continue to use these kits of low cost / accuracy. (KH test kits I find most extreme in variation - possibly as the pool kit is better quality).

So all up, I do appreciate your reply and I feel it creates great awareness -> however we may agree to disagree as I find test kits have a place in maintaining a tank balanced for both fish and plants.
 
I thought the point of EI was that you dont need to test, you supply the ferts in abundance so they are never the source of a deficiency, no need to test. Save your money to buy some nice fish or something rather then test kits. During your initial cycle I can see he need to test, from there you should be able to start to rely on plant growth to see what is needed.
 
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