New planted tank - Struggling a little!

[tayloss]

Hi All,

I have a very small planted 25 litre tank that I started a month to have a go at a planted tank in the view to having some shrimps later on. After a lot of research, I set out and purchased a buffering substrate (Dennerle Scaper's Soil 4L Shrimp & Plants) and some Salty Shrimp GH+ due to the need of keeping the PH low.

Where i am struggling is with cycling the tank and think I may have made the errors with using RO with GH+ to early?

For background, I am using an all-in-one fertiliser containing:--

1.5 ppm Nitrate
0.4 ppm Phosphate
1.6 ppm Potassium
0.2 ppm Magnesium

And I add 2ml per day as per the instructions provided (5ml per 40l).

The plants are growing well and have added a nano CO2 system controlled by a solenoid that comes on 1hr (Morning) and 30mins (Evening) before the light comes on/off - Light is on from 12pm until 6pm (6hrs). The drop checker is green and was yellow to start with until i adjusted the levels.

My Plants consist of (based on George Farmers nano tank video):

Micranthemum MonteCarlo
Eleocharis pusilla
Cryptocoryne wendtii Kompakt
Alternanthera reineckii Mini
Helanthium tenellum Broad Leaf
Pogostemon erectus

Plus a couple of Anbius'.

I am also ghost feeding the tank with flakes and did for a while produce ammonia, but added some stability to help grow the good bacteria.

The lasted tests have come out too good to be true:-

Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0
PH = 6.0-6.1
TDS - 180-190
KH = 0
GH = 8

I know why the KH is at 0 due to only using the GH+ powder, but has the tank really cycled and ready for shrimps, or do I need to increase the PH and other parameters to cycle as I'm also seeing an increase in hair green algae, is this due to a lack of NO3?

My guess is I've made some error in the early water stages and have seen on another thread that it should be cycled with tap water and then brought to where you want it to be?

Also, i'm aware that shrimps and CO2 don't mix too well, but other have had success in keeping them? I'm not worried too much about breeding, but as its only 25l, fish are out of the question?

I have a measurement of NO3 if I up the dose of ferts to 5ml, so should I keep doing this until the GHA is gone? It obviously increases the TDS as well, so think I will have to use pure RO to decrease and then water change at the correct TDS for my rank?

Thanks in advance and sorry for all the questions!

Chris


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Planted Bows]

Hi All,

I have a very small planted 25 litre tank that I started a month to have a go at a planted tank in the view to having some shrimps later on. After a lot of research, I set out and purchased a buffering substrate (Dennerle Scaper's Soil 4L Shrimp & Plants) and some Salty Shrimp GH+ due to the need of keeping the PH low.

Where i am struggling is with cycling the tank and think I may have made the errors with using RO with GH+ to early?

For background, I am using an all-in-one fertiliser containing:--

1.5 ppm Nitrate
0.4 ppm Phosphate
1.6 ppm Potassium
0.2 ppm Magnesium

And I add 2ml per day as per the instructions provided (5ml per 40l).

The plants are growing well and have added a nano CO2 system controlled by a solenoid that comes on 1hr (Morning) and 30mins (Evening) before the light comes on/off - Light is on from 12pm until 6pm (6hrs). The drop checker is green and was yellow to start with until i adjusted the levels.

My Plants consist of (based on George Farmers nano tank video):

Micranthemum MonteCarlo
Eleocharis pusilla
Cryptocoryne wendtii Kompakt
Alternanthera reineckii Mini
Helanthium tenellum Broad Leaf
Pogostemon erectus

Plus a couple of Anbius'.

I am also ghost feeding the tank with flakes and did for a while produce ammonia, but added some stability to help grow the good bacteria.

The lasted tests have come out too good to be true:-

Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0
PH = 6.0-6.1
TDS - 180-190
KH = 0
GH = 8

I know why the KH is at 0 due to only using the GH+ powder, but has the tank really cycled and ready for shrimps, or do I need to increase the PH and other parameters to cycle as I'm also seeing an increase in hair green algae, is this due to a lack of NO3?

My guess is I've made some error in the early water stages and have seen on another thread that it should be cycled with tap water and then brought to where you want it to be?

Also, i'm aware that shrimps and CO2 don't mix too well, but other have had success in keeping them? I'm not worried too much about breeding, but as its only 25l, fish are out of the question?

I have a measurement of NO3 if I up the dose of ferts to 5ml, so should I keep doing this until the GHA is gone? It obviously increases the TDS as well, so think I will have to use pure RO to decrease and then water change at the correct TDS for my rank?

Thanks in advance and sorry for all the questions!

Chris


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have red cherries and crystal red Shrimp in my high tech tank and that had injected co2 aswell. Not sure who told you co2 and shrimp don't mix? I think a lot of co2 would cause an issue, just like it would on fish?

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

 

[Halil]

Hi All,

I have a very small planted 25 litre tank that I started a month to have a go at a planted tank in the view to having some shrimps later on. After a lot of research, I set out and purchased a buffering substrate (Dennerle Scaper's Soil 4L Shrimp & Plants) and some Salty Shrimp GH+ due to the need of keeping the PH low.

Where i am struggling is with cycling the tank and think I may have made the errors with using RO with GH+ to early?

For background, I am using an all-in-one fertiliser containing:--

1.5 ppm Nitrate
0.4 ppm Phosphate
1.6 ppm Potassium
0.2 ppm Magnesium

And I add 2ml per day as per the instructions provided (5ml per 40l).

The plants are growing well and have added a nano CO2 system controlled by a solenoid that comes on 1hr (Morning) and 30mins (Evening) before the light comes on/off - Light is on from 12pm until 6pm (6hrs). The drop checker is green and was yellow to start with until i adjusted the levels.

My Plants consist of (based on George Farmers nano tank video):

Micranthemum MonteCarlo
Eleocharis pusilla
Cryptocoryne wendtii Kompakt
Alternanthera reineckii Mini
Helanthium tenellum Broad Leaf
Pogostemon erectus

Plus a couple of Anbius'.

I am also ghost feeding the tank with flakes and did for a while produce ammonia, but added some stability to help grow the good bacteria.

The lasted tests have come out too good to be true:-

Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0
PH = 6.0-6.1
TDS - 180-190
KH = 0
GH = 8

I know why the KH is at 0 due to only using the GH+ powder, but has the tank really cycled and ready for shrimps, or do I need to increase the PH and other parameters to cycle as I'm also seeing an increase in hair green algae, is this due to a lack of NO3?

My guess is I've made some error in the early water stages and have seen on another thread that it should be cycled with tap water and then brought to where you want it to be?

Also, i'm aware that shrimps and CO2 don't mix too well, but other have had success in keeping them? I'm not worried too much about breeding, but as its only 25l, fish are out of the question?

I have a measurement of NO3 if I up the dose of ferts to 5ml, so should I keep doing this until the GHA is gone? It obviously increases the TDS as well, so think I will have to use pure RO to decrease and then water change at the correct TDS for my rank?

Thanks in advance and sorry for all the questions!

Chris


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im sure someone will help with the parameters but as for CO2 and shrimp, depending on how much CO2 is added the shrimp will be less active and less likely to breed, but you can always turn it down.

Good luck


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tayloss]

Thanks Guys!

To be honest, the shrimps are a nice to have if I can get the tank under control and rid of the GHA. I have decided to up the ferts to 5ml per day to see if it has any affect on the algae.

If they breed, thats a bonus, but if not, then I will have to consider a dedicated shrimp tank perhaps?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The tank looks good. I would try adding some shrimps

I'm also seeing an increase in hair green algae, is this due to a lack of NO3?

Probably not, the green algae are <"physiologically close to the higher plants">, if you have conditions suitable for the plants you want, you also have suitable conditions for the plants (green algae) you don't want.

The lasted tests have come out too good to be true:-

That is because it is too good to be true, you definitely don't have 0 ppm NO3.

We have quite a few testing threads, and a <"range of informed opinion">, but there are a number of issues with the measurement of mono-valent ions (ions with one charge like NO3- and NH4+).

I am also ghost feeding the tank with flakes and did for a while produce ammonia, but added some stability to help grow the good bacteria.

You can stop adding the fish flakes, ammonia is important because it is really toxic to aquatic life, but in terms of biological filtration it is much less important than oxygen.

I know this is a forum, so you can ignore 95% of what I'm about to write, but just forget everything you have ever read about "cycling" on forums, ~95% of it is wrong, and <"every-ones view of which 5% is right will differ">.

cheers Darrel

 

[tayloss]

Just a bit of an update! I'm performing a couple more water changes to stabilise the TDS for the shrimp and reduced the fertiliser to fight the algae.. getting things in balance is becoming a challenge!

No more feeding and am leaving it to silently cycle as been advise the plants are probably using the ammonia and making it all save.. the algae is driving me mad, but will not give up :-£

Thanks,
Chris


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ceg4048]

reduced the fertiliser to fight the algae

Hello,
Reducing fertilizer never fights algae. In fact, reducing fertilizer is algae's best ally. I'm afraid you've misinterpreted the information provided.

Also, you need to stop testing because you are being misled by your test kits.

Cheers,

 

[tayloss]

Ok, I'm adding the amount as specified on the instructions, so have put it back to before as I was doubling the daily dose?

Not sure what to do as have conflicting information?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ceg4048]

Ok, I'm adding the amount as specified on the instructions, so have put it back to before as I was doubling the daily dose?

Not sure what to do as have conflicting information?

Hi,
Let me try o clarify the conflict:

When you have plant health issues and algae, and when someone states that you should reduce your dosing to sole the issue, then you should always cry "bollix" because adding lots of nutrients can not cause algae.

Algae is directly related to poor plant health, and poor plant health is directly related to poor nutrition.

So although you shouldn't need to dose double the EI level of nutrients, neither is it detrimental - so dose whatever level you like.
So what I'm trying to say is that it is always a bad idea for someone suffering from malnutrition to reduce their nutritional intake.

Having said that, I'm aware that many shrimp keepers have a fear of high TDS. I've not seen any hard data showing that high TDS is problematic and since I'm not a shrimp keeper I don't really want to enter that battlefield. So lowering the nutrient levels to combat high TDS is certainly a worthwhile goal in that context - and since you were dosing double anyway then there ought not to be any penalty. Reduction of the nutrient level should be for the right reason, definitely not because you think it will reduce algae.

I want to change your mindset so that at the first sign of trouble in your tank, you do not immediately run away from nutrition. This is not how you fight algae.

Secondly, if you continue to chase test kit readings you will be running on the little endless gerbil wheel for the rest of your life. The kits are clearly lying to, as they have done for decades, and you would be well advised to bin them and save your money.

I've had a look at the picture in your original post. I can't quite make it out, but It looks like you have some type of filamentous algae on the wood . It could be Rhizoclonium - I'm not really sure. The Anubias definitely suffers GSA in addition to the filamentous. The GSA is typical when Anubias is subjected to high light.

The GSA is caused by any combination of poor CO2 and poor PO4. If as you say, you were double dosing, then it is likely due to poor CO2.
Filamentous algae, as well as Rhizo are cause by poor CO2, so based on the evidence, the appearance of the two types seem to corroborate a CO2 problem.

The carpet plants look well cared for so you must have had good CO2 and then something changed to either increase the demand for CO2 or to decrease the availability of CO2.

For Rhizo/Filamentous you'll need to scrub and clean the surfaces. Mechanicall remove as much as you can with a toothbrush or other method.
While the water level is low you can use a small paintbrush to apply Excel or equivalent to all affected areas.

The GSA on the Anubias can never be rectified. Best to cut off and remove the affected leaves as they will never recover.

Having shrimp complicates the problem because ordinarily it would be simple to use a daily supplement of Excel to improve CO2.
You can still do that but you have to be careful not to poison the shrimp.

Definitely reduce the lighting intensity if possible.

If you can increase the injection rate without harming the shrimp then do so, but again, care is advised.

To increase the flow rate you can remove some of the filter media.

I cannot see how you are diffusing CO2 so I cannot advise if there is room for improvement.

Cheers,

 

[tayloss]

Hi,
Let me try o clarify the conflict:

When you have plant health issues and algae, and when someone states that you should reduce your dosing to sole the issue, then you should always cry "bollix" because adding lots of nutrients can not cause algae.

Algae is directly related to poor plant health, and poor plant health is directly related to poor nutrition.

So although you shouldn't need to dose double the EI level of nutrients, neither is it detrimental - so dose whatever level you like.
So what I'm trying to say is that it is always a bad idea for someone suffering from malnutrition to reduce their nutritional intake.

Having said that, I'm aware that many shrimp keepers have a fear of high TDS. I've not seen any hard data showing that high TDS is problematic and since I'm not a shrimp keeper I don't really want to enter that battlefield. So lowering the nutrient levels to combat high TDS is certainly a worthwhile goal in that context - and since you were dosing double anyway then there ought not to be any penalty. Reduction of the nutrient level should be for the right reason, definitely not because you think it will reduce algae.

I want to change your mindset so that at the first sign of trouble in your tank, you do not immediately run away from nutrition. This is not how you fight algae.

I am not too worried about the TDS levels at the moment as I want to try and get the balance before worrying about livestock etc. The amount is back to the recommended 2.5ml per 20ltrs. Should I keep it at this level, or double it as I was already doing? The reason why I reduced it back was the thinking that there was too much nutrients in the water?

Secondly, if you continue to chase test kit readings you will be running on the little endless gerbil wheel for the rest of your life. The kits are clearly lying to, as they have done for decades, and you would be well advised to bin them and save your money.

Another user has also recommended the same and to worry about the plants being healthy and not what the water is doing

I've had a look at the picture in your original post. I can't quite make it out, but It looks like you have some type of filamentous algae on the wood . It could be Rhizoclonium - I'm not really sure. The Anubias definitely suffers GSA in addition to the filamentous. The GSA is typical when Anubias is subjected to high light.

The GSA is caused by any combination of poor CO2 and poor PO4. If as you say, you were double dosing, then it is likely due to poor CO2.
Filamentous algae, as well as Rhizo are cause by poor CO2, so based on the evidence, the appearance of the two types seem to corroborate a CO2 problem.

The carpet plants look well cared for so you must have had good CO2 and then something changed to either increase the demand for CO2 or to decrease the availability of CO2.

For Rhizo/Filamentous you'll need to scrub and clean the surfaces. Mechanicall remove as much as you can with a toothbrush or other method.
While the water level is low you can use a small paintbrush to apply Excel or equivalent to all affected areas.

The GSA on the Anubias can never be rectified. Best to cut off and remove the affected leaves as they will never recover.

Having shrimp complicates the problem because ordinarily it would be simple to use a daily supplement of Excel to improve CO2.
You can still do that but you have to be careful not to poison the shrimp.

Definitely reduce the lighting intensity if possible.

If you can increase the injection rate without harming the shrimp then do so, but again, care is advised.

To increase the flow rate you can remove some of the filter media.

I cannot see how you are diffusing CO2 so I cannot advise if there is room for improvement.

Cheers,

So you are recommending that I manually remove as much as possible from all the wood and remove the affected leaves from the plants that are fully covered? Looking at the drop checker, its darkish green which is a indicator that the co2 levels are ok?

This is the diffuser that I am using:

I have also raised to lighting up to as high as it will go to reduce intensity, so not sure what else I can do other than to put a diffuser to reduce even further. For information, its a Dennerle LED 5.0 light..

Thanks,
Chris

 

[ceg4048]

I am not too worried about the TDS levels at the moment as I want to try and get the balance before worrying about livestock etc. The amount is back to the recommended 2.5ml per 20ltrs. Should I keep it at this level, or double it as I was already doing? The reason why I reduced it back was the thinking that there was too much nutrients in the water?

Hi Chris,
OK, so now that you have freed your mind from the paranoia of "nutrients causing algae", and since you are not worried about TDS, and since you are not suffering from any type of algae that is related to nutrient deficiency, I would dose as you were before just to be on the safe side.

I mean, you really should never need to double dose the nutrient level. The EI dosing scheme, at the standard levels were proven to be at or near the max necessary to prevent malnutrition. I refer you to the EI dosing article in the Tutorial section of the forum. However, since nutrients don't cause algae, you are free to dose as much as you want.

London Dragon had a shrimp tank some years ago, where he suffered a brain fart, miscalculated his powder to water mix and was dosing 10x the normal EI value. His tank looked fantastic - and it was a shrimp tank, I ran an experiment where I dosed 5x EI levels - in fact, if you read the EI tutorial. look at the images. That was my 5x EI tank. So I can assure you that there will be no penalty for 2x dosing, but neither should it be necessary.

For the moment though, since we are troubleshooting, it is better to keep things that are working. For example, as I mentioned about Paulo, folks miscalculte their mix sometimes and maybe what you think is double may actually be single. I'm not saying that this is your case, but if it were, it might complicate your troubleshooting if you reduced your dosing. This also has happened to some folks and it really got complicated because they made other changes at the same time that they reduce the dosing without realizing that they started to under-dose...

Another user has also recommended the same and to worry about the plants being healthy and not what the water is doing

Yep, at least one person is listening...the only thing, really, that you should worry about your water is "are you doing enough frequent and massive water changes".

So you are recommending that I manually remove as much as possible from all the wood and remove the affected leaves from the plants that are fully covered?

Definitely. When you are dealing with algal blooms the most important action is the harassment and eviction of the resident algae. Algae in the tank spawn and produce spores. These spores then grow up to be algae, who produce more algal spores and so on and so on...

Looking at the drop checker, its darkish green which is a indicator that the co2 levels are ok?

The DC should be a LIME green, not dark green. Injection rate must be increase to produce a lime green color by the time the lights are turned on.

This is the diffuser that I am using:

Well, I can't quite figure that contraption out. There are two pieces? I'm not really familiar with it. I assume it sits in the tank? does the out put of this unit freely flow out into the tank or is the output fed into the inlet of the filter? If not then you might try to port the bubles into the filter inlet which might help get better dissolution of the gas.

Also I cannot see from the picture how you have located/oriented the filter outlet. Improving the flow rate and distribution of the filter outlet is a critical factor.

Cheers,

 

[tayloss]

Really appreciate the help! Thank you...

I've upped the CO2 output today and performed a 50% water change to try and get rid of as much algae as possible through using a toothbrush to manually clean the affected areas..

The CO2 is directly below the filer intake and is sucked in and sent through the spray bar. The flow also points toward the main plants and they sway gently..

Lastly the light is at the top of the bracket to try and reduce the intensity..




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ceg4048]

I've upped the CO2 output today and performed a 50% water change to try and get rid of as much algae as possible through using a toothbrush to manually clean the affected areas..

The CO2 is directly below the filer intake and is sucked in and sent through the spray bar. The flow also points toward the main plants and they sway gently..

Lastly the light is at the top of the bracket to try and reduce the intensity..

OK, that sounds...except for the part about the spraybars pointing towards some particular plants? Assuming that the flow rate is adequate, the holes in the spraybars should be pointing towards the horizon at the front glass pane. They should not be pointed down in the hopes of accomodating some particular plant. The flow distribution pattern is best achieved by a dead level orientation of the holes.

Cheers,

 

[tayloss]

Ok, I will readjust the spray bar to be level with the water

I will update you when hopefully something changes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Hello,
Reducing fertilizer never fights algae. In fact, reducing fertilizer is algae's best ally. I'm afraid you've misinterpreted the information provided.

Also, you need to stop testing because you are being misled by your test kits.

Cheers,

Hi Clive, long time no see

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Clive, long time no see

Hi Steve, yes it's been a while. Hope you are well and that your fish & plants are happy mate!

Cheers,

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Cheers Clive, all the best to you too!

Ps sorry for hijacking this thread

 

[tayloss]

No problem Steve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HiNtZ]

It took me 3 years and a lot of trial and error to realise excess ferts don't cause algae and in fact a deficiency in any one of them will lead you to algae.

My LFS started a new tank recently which looked great for two weeks - when I went back in the shop it was smothered in hair algae and the guy was cleaning it out. He'd done a phosphate and nitrate test (which most would frown on), and the phosphate test showed literally zero so I dropped some KH2PO4 in for him to try for a week and when I returned the tank looked mint. He said the dose I recommended still saw plenty of phosphate at the end of the week, so told him to half the dose for the week after and the tank has been fine since. Trying to tell the man in the beginning "you need phosphate in a planted tank" was like trying to tell an Eskimo he needs a freezer! He just wasn't having none of it.

I used to use test kits right across the range, but now the only one I use is phosphate..... and not even to see how much is in there on an accurate scale, it is simply to see "is there any, or not" because the accuracy of them beyond simply showing the presence of phosphate is pretty ambiguous.

As for the shrimp...... never had any problem. If you're adding shrimp to a CO2 rich environment, either add them at night when it's off, or trickle them in with a separate container over the course of the day.

I also think your tank looks fine! It's a new setup, and the anubias (which I'm guessing you're not happy with) needs plenty of time to settle in. Give it a chance

 

[tayloss]

It took me 3 years and a lot of trial and error to realise excess ferts don't cause algae and in fact a deficiency in any one of them will lead you to algae.

My LFS started a new tank recently which looked great for two weeks - when I went back in the shop it was smothered in hair algae and the guy was cleaning it out. He'd done a phosphate and nitrate test (which most would frown on), and the phosphate test showed literally zero so I dropped some KH2PO4 in for him to try for a week and when I returned the tank looked mint. He said the dose I recommended still saw plenty of phosphate at the end of the week, so told him to half the dose for the week after and the tank has been fine since. Trying to tell the man in the beginning "you need phosphate in a planted tank" was like trying to tell an Eskimo he needs a freezer! He just wasn't having none of it.

I used to use test kits right across the range, but now the only one I use is phosphate..... and not even to see how much is in there on an accurate scale, it is simply to see "is there any, or not" because the accuracy of them beyond simply showing the presence of phosphate is pretty ambiguous.

As for the shrimp...... never had any problem. If you're adding shrimp to a CO2 rich environment, either add them at night when it's off, or trickle them in with a separate container over the course of the day.

I also think your tank looks fine! It's a new setup, and the anubias (which I'm guessing you're not happy with) needs plenty of time to settle in. Give it a chance

Thank you for the reassurance and have kept the fertilsers slightly higher and have increased the CO2 to see if i can get the tank under control. I will also continue to perform large water changes with manual removal of the algae to keep it under control until the tank stabilises..!

Don't want too make too many changes too quickly!

Any hints to tips you can offer would be great appreciated

Thanks,
Chris