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CO2 and Lights When To Start?

Thanks again Clive, I'm so glad you are still around on this forum!

Tomorrow I will be adding the buffers to increase the alkalinity KH as you have suggested. There are 400 litres in this tank and it is a closed top. The outlets from the two filters are about an inch below the surface and each pointed at the front glass at a very slight angle, one to the left and one to the right. Even an inch below the surface there is still a fair bit of water agitation at the surface, so there may be a slight gassing off of the CO2. But I expect this to lessen over time as the output from the filters reduces slightly.

There are signs of new leaves forming and sprouting from the Crypts. But one plant I thought I would give a try is a Didiplis Diandra, this has melted completely into oblivion and I don't think there will be any re-emergence of this plant, so £5.99 gone to waste.

I am not planning to add any large structural plants such as Amazon Swords this time around because they just get far too big. I have got 10 Giant Vallis plants running along the back which are doing really well.

I will keep the LED light setting on low, sunny with cloudy intervals, kept on for six hours a day and see how things go..

Updates to follow.

Cheers,

Steve
 
There are 400 litres in this tank and it is a closed top. The outlets from the two filters are about an inch below the surface and each pointed at the front glass at a very slight angle, one to the left and one to the right. Even an inch below the surface there is still a fair bit of water agitation at the surface, so there may be a slight gassing off of the CO2. But I expect this to lessen over time as the output from the filters reduces slightly.

There are signs of new leaves forming and sprouting from the Crypts. But one plant I thought I would give a try is a Didiplis Diandra, this has melted completely into oblivion and I don't think there will be any re-emergence of this plant, so £5.99 gone to waste.

Hi Steve,
If this is a 100 gallon tank then 2 bubbles per second is almost negligible. No wonder the plants you mentioned melted. While it is certainly possible to run the tank with low injection rates, for 100G, unless your flow and distribution are epic, it will be very difficult to have newly submerged plants survive the transformation. If it were me I would increase the injection rate to where I could not even count bubbles.

A little agitation at the surface is OK as long as it does not break the surface with bubbles.

It's very difficult in a large tank to distribute flow to the bottom. I don't see where you listed the filter specification, but hopefully you did not fill them to the brim with fancy expensive media. This kills your flow rate and is totally unnecessary.

Cheers,
 
100 gallon tank then 2 bubbles per second is almost negligible.

Think I have my 10Gal tank on nearly 2 BPS


increase the injection rate to where I could not even count bubbles.

On my 100Gal the BPS is off the scale, not water lasts in the Bubble counter long, Have been using JBL inline atomizers and its a good job they refil with water as then I can see the coloum of bubbles, think I'm on the fourth or fith 6Kg CO2 bottle this year.
 
Hi Steve,
If this is a 100 gallon tank then 2 bubbles per second is almost negligible. No wonder the plants you mentioned melted. While it is certainly possible to run the tank with low injection rates, for 100G, unless your flow and distribution are epic, it will be very difficult to have newly submerged plants survive the transformation. If it were me I would increase the injection rate to where I could not even count bubbles.

A little agitation at the surface is OK as long as it does not break the surface with bubbles.

It's very difficult in a large tank to distribute flow to the bottom. I don't see where you listed the filter specification, but hopefully you did not fill them to the brim with fancy expensive media. This kills your flow rate and is totally unnecessary.

Cheers,
Hi Clive,

I was thinking 120 bubbles per minute was maybe too much, ha ha! I based this on articles I remember reading in one of Takashi Amano's books where 60 bubbles per minute seemed to be the norm, and 120 bubbles per minute was the high end of the scale. Filters are 2 x Eheim's one is a Professional 2, the other is a 650 T thermal filter. This time around I have almost halved the volume of filter media in each basket. This is based on your advice from my previous journal 'The Full Monty' personally I am a big fan of Siporax Intered Glass media, and the Eheim Bio Medium Pro.

Wil keep you posted and thanks for the PM on the EI Ferts.
 
I cant really count my bubble rate on my 200l tank (I do have a sump though ) I even modified the BC by drilling out the bubble exit hole.
That is why I use my PH meter to get an idea of how much C02 is going in.
I seem to be able to see when there is enough gas in a new set up, the plants very quickly look more vibrant & it becomes obvious they are growing.
I learnt many years ago not to be frugal with the gas & except the cost & hassle of changing bottles... its just part of the game.
 
Hi Steve,
What I meant is that you want to avoid having too much light. I've never advocated the use of mega lighting because that's what causes most of our problems.
I don't know what size tank this is, so I have no idea whether 2 bubbles per second is a lot or not enough.

Also, you noted that you measured the tanks alkalinity to be zero

Generally, pH measurement, especially with typical probes (I assume you are using a probe because you report the pH to two decimal places as well as a conductivity value) do not function that accurately with zero alkalinity. I believe that even the titration methods (liquids) may also not work as accurately.

I would probably raise the alkalinity a couple of units via addition of potassium carbonate (K2CO3) or potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) just to ensure an accurate pH reading.
You can use JamesC's notes for remineralization of RO water but just use the KH adjustment numbers http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm
at the very bottom:
1.5g NaHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH
1.8g KHCO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH
1.2g K2CO3 in 25 litres of water = 2 dKH

Also, as foxfish mentions, you can raise the bubble rate during the photoperiod. I see no need to run the gas over night.

Is this an open top tank or a closed top? You do get faster off-gassing with open top but that just means you need a higher injection rate to compensate.

Cheers,


Hi Clive,

Based on our recent conversation in which you replied:-

don't recall posting anything specif for 400L but it would simply have been a calculation based on the standard 20 gal dosing, which is:
Sunday 50% or more Water Change then dose [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Monday 1/16 teaspoon CSM+B
Tuesday - [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Wednesday - 1/16 teaspoon CSM+B
Thursday - [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Friday Rest
Saturday - Rest

So a 400L is around 100 Gal, which is 5 times bigger than the 20 G standard, so just multiply all the numbers by 5. It's that simple.
5*(3/16 teaspoon KNO3) = 15/16 teaspoon so just round to 1 teaspoon 3X per week
5*(1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4) = 5/16 teaspoon so just round to 1/4 teaspoon 3X per week
5*(1/2 teaspoon Epsom Salts) = 5/2 teaspoon so just round to 3 teaspoon 3X per week
5*(1/16 teaspoon micros) = 5/16 teaspoon so just round to 1/4 teaspoon 2X per week.

I have made up a stock solution using your calculations which were based on a 600 ml solution, except I have doubled the solution to 1.2 litres, therefore I just doubled the quantity of powders, so it looks like this.

A 600 ml solution - KNO3 = 2 and a quarter tsp doubled to 4 and a half tsp.
A 600 ml solution - KH2PO4 = 1 and a half tsp doubled to 3 tsp.
A 600 ml solution - MgSO4 = 6 tsp doubled to 12 tsp.

The 1.2 litre stock solution is dosed at 100 MPs 3 X per week.

The CSM+ Stock solution based on your calculations for 300 mls of water was half a tsp, dosed at 25 ml 2 X per week, so I have doubled so it reads:-

600 mls of water with 1 full tsp CSM+ dosed at 50 mls 2 X per week.

I have a feeling I have got this totally wrong confusing myself with doubling the quantities of the powders, and doubling the dosage

One other thing, at the moment I don't have any Calcium Carbonate CaCO3. I have got food grade Calcium Chloride CaCl2 made by Fluval Sea. Would that do the job, is it safe to use?

Thanks and sorry to be a pain!

Cheers,

Steve
 
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Did a little vid of BPS on 500Litre/100Gal tank


The higher Rate input is use by the pH controler for boosting and the low rate maintains the 1.0 pH drop


Hi Zeus,

I notice you have got 2 X diffusers whacking in the CO2 there at a tremendous rate on a 500 litre tank. Have you ever used a CO2 testing kit to measure the amount of CO2 in your water, or are you just relying on the colour of the drop checker?

Are they JBL CO2 Diffusers. I've tried them all but gone back to my Dupla 400 CO2 Reactor. No '7 Up' effect, but the reactor does have to be in the tank.

Also, I am slightly confused, you say this is a 500 Litre/ 100 Gal tank, when Clive tells me my 400 litre tank is a 100 Gal tank. This is important when it comes to calculating the dry powders as per my post to Clive above

Cheers,

Steve
 
I notice you have got 2 X diffusers whacking in the CO2 there at a tremendous rate on a 500 litre tank. Have you ever used a CO2 testing kit to measure the amount of CO2 in your water, or are you just relying on the colour of the drop checker?

yes Very high rate of CO2, but the more I read about CO2/Light and algea from much more knowledgeable and experience scapers and plant growers like D. Wong, Ceg and ShowdawMac the more I understand that what I am trying to achieve needs the highest [CO2] with livestock. To quote 'Ceg' to make the most of CO2 and plants we would be better off having no livestock and get the [CO2] high enough to really get the plants to grow without algae issues.

Drop checker not completely reliable IMO but yellow to nearly clear, Livestock not gasping, Plus use pH controller. Just got a pH pen also, when both controller and pen calibrated with same buffer solutions but give different pHs of tank pre CO2 period and mid photo period. So all tests not reliable and to be taken with a pinch of salt. Livestock let you know where the limits are;) Plus the kH of tank varies day to day from WC as water dissolved minerals change and it gets disolved from rocks.

Are they JBL CO2 Diffusers. I've tried them all but gone back to my Dupla 400 CO2 Reactor. No '7 Up' effect, but the reactor does have to be in the tank.

Yes JBL have twin DIY reactors and tank completely Bubble free except from the peraling a few hours after lights on and Twin star. Did some Vids in Olympus is Calling - twin CO2 reactors fitted here of some of the testing I did and results bubble wise

Also, I am slightly confused, you say this is a 500 Litre/ 100 Gal tank, when Clive tells me my 400 litre tank is a 100 Gal tank. This is important when it comes to calculating the dry powders as per my post to Clive above

500Litres is 110 imperial gallons
400Litres is 88 imperial gallons

But

500Litres is 132 US gallons
400Litres is 105 US gallons

Hence both are correct but the answer is in the detail

So the yanks think theres are bigger, but we know the truth :lol:
 
So the yanks think theres are bigger, but we know the truth :lol:
:happy:

I have a feeling I have got this totally wrong confusing myself with doubling the quantities of the powders, and doubling the dosage
Steve, why are you making up solutions for this size tank? Just dump a teaspoon of KNO3 and a quarter teaspoon of KH2PO4 powders into the tank 3X a week and 1/4 teaspoon of the trace mix 2X per week.

The same with any other of the powders. Why complicate your life? It doesn't matter whether you are super accurate or sloppy.
Also, I am slightly confused, you say this is a 500 Litre/ 100 Gal tank, when Clive tells me my 400 litre tank is a 100 Gal tank. This is important when it comes to calculating the dry powders as per my post to Clive above
Again, this question illustrate how folks confuse themselves and cause more trouble than they need. The guy who invented this scheme was American, so of course he uses US Gallons. In any case it would not matter whether you use US or Imperial Gallons. This is an ESTIMATIVE Index. Use whatever gallons you want. It won't really matter.

The concentrations are guidelines and were written in an era where people were so paranoid of nutrients that they were using zero PPM of nutrients as their reference. So the plants would suffer and algal blooms were prominent. The concentration of nutrients resulting from an EI dosing scheme are so high that even if you are off by 20% or more, you are still vastly higher than if you were attempting to have zero as your goal.

The actual concentration values therefore are not something to fret over once you understand this concept. I mean, think about it; in your 400L tank you do not actually have 400L of water, do you? If you have a lot of rocks, plants and gravel, there might only be about 80% of the tank volume with water in it.

Precision is not the goal here people. The goal is to not run away from nutrition. If you need more then add more. If you can get away with less then use less. Keep it real.

I was thinking 120 bubbles per minute was maybe too much, ha ha! I based this on articles I remember reading in one of Takashi Amano's books where 60 bubbles per minute seemed to be the norm
Here is another example of reading a number and all of a sudden it's as if Moses himself came down from the mountain with some number carved in a stone tablet, pre-ordained by God.

Who cares what number Takashi Amano used in his tank? You do not have his tank or his army of acolytes. Use values that work for you. I and Zeus just happen to know from experience what typical values are. If your flow and distribution are excellent, and if your lighting are low then you can get away with a lower injection rate, if not then you'll have to use a higher injection rate.

I reviewed a couple of posts on the forum where some smart ass constantly bitches about our 10X flow rate rule.
About 10 years ago we realized that flow was a serious issue and we discovered that vendors lie about the flow rate of their filters and pumps for marketing purposes. We simply calculated an empirical correction factor, based on our collective experience, and thus was born the 10X rule of thumb, which went a long way in ensuring that you would get sufficient flow in the tank, even if a vendor lied about his pump, even if you had a lot of tall plants, etc., etc., etc..
Did we say that you must always use 10X? No, because it's a rule of thumb, just like the fact that having three meals a day is just a rule of thumb, and it's a rule that works pretty well more times than not.

So please do not have an anxiety attack over number here or there. They are only meant to get you near enough to your destination. You have to find the car park once you get there.

Cheers,
 
WOW:eek::eek: Oh I do love the lack of the smell of napalm in the morning

Thanks Clive, this makes a hell of a lot of sense and will simplify things greatly. So appreciate you taking the time to reply with such detailed, honest and forthright explanations. :crazy::clap:

I blame my 23 plus years in the military for making me so paranoid about exactness and precision, there was no Estimative methodology, do it by the book or get killed, locked up, your backside kicked, or thrown out. Oh those were the days!

I am a lot more relieved now than I was this morning, after the pfaffing about.

Just need to find a good source of calcium carbonate CaCO3 now, only found it online so far.

Take care mate, and thanks ever so much again.

Steve
 
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Three times a week i put three teaspoons of KNO3, 1 teaspoon of KHPo4 and one teaspoon of MgSO4 in a liter hot tapwater, stir and put this in my sump. Never measured anything. I just change about 100 liters per day. Lowish light, no algea. (and two times a week half a teaspoon of micro's).:):)
 
I and Zeus just happen to know from experience what typical values

:cigar: thanks that makes my day. I'm 'standing on the shoulders' of great posts/threads/vids of much more experienced plants growers like yourself m8. Plus whats working at Olympus is Calling my first tank/journal
 
Three times a week i put three teaspoons of KNO3, 1 teaspoon of KHPo4 and one teaspoon of MgSO4 in a liter hot tapwater, stir and put this in my sump. Never measured anything. I just change about 100 liters per day. Lowish light, no algea. (and two times a week half a teaspoon of micro's).:):)

How many litres had your tank got again?
 
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