gabriel.basso
Member
It is yellow the whole photoperiod.
And no, I couldn't find 4dKH water yet, so I used tank water. Guess I'll have to DIY that.
RO water + NaHCO3 (sodium bicarbonate).
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Browning and melting HC
- Thread starter gabriel.basso
- Start date
It is yellow the whole photoperiod.
And no, I couldn't find 4dKH water yet, so I used tank water. Guess I'll have to DIY that.
RO water + NaHCO3 (sodium bicarbonate).
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Yes, that will work but I don't have the numbers handy right now.
The tank water will always give you a false high reading.
Gabriel, you would do better to take the pH readings from the tank and to look at the change in pH over time. Otherwise we are dealing with a lottery.
For example, if you have wood in the tank, the tannins that leach out into the tank are acidic.
There may be other organic acids in the tank water that help to drive the DC yellow.
Cheers,
gabriel.basso
Member
Alright.. today I made 4dKH solution for the dropchecker. Tested it and ok, it's between 3.5 and 4dKH. Good enough I guess.
I also bought an ammonia test and I expected it would show me high levels since the tank is cycling and the filter and media are new. But the results were higher then I tgought: it is between 2 and 3.5ppm! Even with daily WCs since day 1. Hope it is normal and that bacteria cologne gets stronger.
Regarding ph I'm using those strips indicators (just ordered a digital ph meter). It showed me 6.5 ph at the end of photoperiod. I'll keep testing to see what is the variation after CO2 drop.
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I also bought an ammonia test and I expected it would show me high levels since the tank is cycling and the filter and media are new. But the results were higher then I tgought: it is between 2 and 3.5ppm! Even with daily WCs since day 1. Hope it is normal and that bacteria cologne gets stronger.
Regarding ph I'm using those strips indicators (just ordered a digital ph meter). It showed me 6.5 ph at the end of photoperiod. I'll keep testing to see what is the variation after CO2 drop.
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Don’t give up on them HC can be slow growing, so it’s slow to adapt to change. I’ve done the same as you and my HC looked worse for ware for a few weeks, and now it’s taking over.
I have an FX4, with 22mm pipes... I’m assuming the FX6 has the same pipes? How have you installed the reactor as I can’t find any that fit the larger pipes.
I have an FX4, with 22mm pipes... I’m assuming the FX6 has the same pipes? How have you installed the reactor as I can’t find any that fit the larger pipes.
gabriel.basso
Member
I won't Chubbs! Brazilian are known for not giving up on things. Wich is a lie but I feel good saying this. Lol
Anyway, I'm doing everything to save HC. Started using airpump last night to make sure they are "breathing" O2.
Regarding the reactor I made a Cerges reactor with 1 inch pipes. Initially I made this because I was afraid FX6 would be too much flow for a 50gal tank so it would help lower it. But besides that, in the end it is showing to be very good reactor. I can barely see bubbles in the tank.
I ordered an upAqua reactor to compare with mine. It has17mm (3/4 inch) connections. To be honest I don't care if I have to adapt the pipes to a smaller diameter. I guess there will be still enough flow.
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Silviu Man
Member
In my opinion, looking to the video, that flow of the water is not OK. HC need a flow but not a storm. The roots of HC are very fragile, same the leaves. HC need to grow as a small, low bush, genereting a kind of runners on the substrate and developing roots where runners touch the ground. HC is growing like strawberries. You will never be able to grow strawberries in a flood!
gabriel.basso
Member
Hey Silviu yes I moved the pump a little upwards and the flow got slower. It was almost a hurricane indeed. The good thing is none of the bushes was taken by the water stream. It a sign the roots are fixing to the substrate. Isn't it?
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Silviu Man
Member
Need time to see if there is something living and with good chances to thrive. Roots mean nothing without leaves. Give it some time and we will see.
gabriel.basso
Member
gabriel.basso
Member
Hey guys, just to give you an update.
I took off the hc, rinsed to eliminate dead leaves and roots and replanted them. Now the aspect is so much better and new leaves are growing already.
I finally was able to properly mesure ph (digital meter arrived yesterday). I guess during photoperiod ph is dropping more than I would like to.
My light goes on at 3h30 pm and goes off at 9h30 pm. 6 hours total.
In the morning the ph was 7.4 and in the end of photoperiod 6. So 1.4 variation.
The alkalinity is 2dKH. I'm not sure if I should dose some potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) to adjust this to 4dKH. I could do it easly since a have a free dosing head on dosing pump.
Here goes an updated picture.
Cheers
Gabriel
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I took off the hc, rinsed to eliminate dead leaves and roots and replanted them. Now the aspect is so much better and new leaves are growing already.
I finally was able to properly mesure ph (digital meter arrived yesterday). I guess during photoperiod ph is dropping more than I would like to.
My light goes on at 3h30 pm and goes off at 9h30 pm. 6 hours total.
In the morning the ph was 7.4 and in the end of photoperiod 6. So 1.4 variation.
The alkalinity is 2dKH. I'm not sure if I should dose some potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) to adjust this to 4dKH. I could do it easly since a have a free dosing head on dosing pump.
Here goes an updated picture.
Cheers
Gabriel
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Last edited:
Hi Gabriel,
Glad things are improving.
I'm not understanding what you mean by this:
What is the pH when the lights go on?
How many hours from gas on to light on?
It seems you have arrested the decay and if new leaves are growing, then I really would not tinker too much for at least a few more weeks.
Allow the plants some stability for a while.
It's very easy to do something stupid and to ruin the improvements you have accomplished.
You could try, for example, to turn the gas on an hour earlier before the light.
Ideally of course, we would like the minimum pH to occur at lights on, but that is very difficult to achieve, and it's a very theoretical metric.
By far, more importantly is the observed health of the plants, which you have already achieved.
Yes, you could add more Carbonate to bring the alkalinity up to 4, but why bother? It's one more thing to add all the time and one more complication.
When I see that my plants are getting healthier, I usually abandon attempts to achieve some theoretical goal.
Naturally, if their health starts to decline again, then I would seek further improvements and further tweaking, but I try to discourage people from chasing numbers instead of being satisfied with the physical improvement in the tank.
Cheers,
Glad things are improving.
I'm not understanding what you mean by this:
Do you mean that when the gas first turns on the pH is 7.4?
What is the pH when the lights go on?
How many hours from gas on to light on?
It seems you have arrested the decay and if new leaves are growing, then I really would not tinker too much for at least a few more weeks.
Allow the plants some stability for a while.
It's very easy to do something stupid and to ruin the improvements you have accomplished.
You could try, for example, to turn the gas on an hour earlier before the light.
Ideally of course, we would like the minimum pH to occur at lights on, but that is very difficult to achieve, and it's a very theoretical metric.
By far, more importantly is the observed health of the plants, which you have already achieved.
Yes, you could add more Carbonate to bring the alkalinity up to 4, but why bother? It's one more thing to add all the time and one more complication.
When I see that my plants are getting healthier, I usually abandon attempts to achieve some theoretical goal.
Naturally, if their health starts to decline again, then I would seek further improvements and further tweaking, but I try to discourage people from chasing numbers instead of being satisfied with the physical improvement in the tank.
Cheers,
Silviu Man
Member
Maybe you should consider keeping continous addition of CO2 at a level that provide a constant pH (depending of the tank content needs, for instance 6.8 or 7.0) instead having so large differences. Animals and plants suffer all the time when parameters, no matter what, have large variations in values. Of course, as colleagues said, keeping an eye on the plants all the time.
gabriel.basso
Member
Sorry for my bad english Clive.. What I meant was that before CO2 reactor goes on the ph is 7.4. It turns on 2 hours before lights to make sure dropchecker is light green/yellow when the lights go on. When the lights go off ph is 6.0. So there is a drop of 1.4 degrees.
I've built a Cerges reactor, and I found out that it takes some time to start releasing CO2 in the water. It forms a CO2 pocket inside the reactor's canister. First I was turning it on 1 hour before lights, but dropchecker wasn't light green yet. Then I increased to 2 hours. It also goes off 2 hours before lights off.
Regarding raising dKH to 4 degrees I guess you have a point there to not complicate things. I will keep observing plants development and maybe I'll adjust this in the future. Besides carbonate, plants would benefit from additional K also. But for now I can tell my plants are really thriving, Rotala Green has grown a lot to the point I will have to trim them soon because they are shading middle area plants. They are kind of leaning forward trying to reach the lights in the middle of the tank. That's something I'll also have to think about later, maybe adding another light to increase the spread.
thanks for the advises!
gabriel.basso
Member
Yeah Silviu, that would be a good option to keep constant ph level, but I really don't want to leave CO2 turned on all the time. I've bought a timer and a solenoid valve for this purpose. Besides my cylinder is not too big, so I would have to fill it more often too.
For now I will keep watching plants and monitoring ph drop. Next I would try to raise dKH and in the end if nothing helps I'll follow your advice. Thanks anyway Silviu, your comments are always welcome and valuable!
Silviu Man
Member
OK, I've got it. As far as I understood, you can program the selenoid due to a programmable socket. Try this : start it one hour befor light. Then keep it one hour working, one hour stop, one hour working, one hour stop ... up to one hour before light is off. Then after, one hour working, two hours stop. This way you get a relatively constant CO2 addition, more during the light time and less during the dark time with an optimal use of the content of cylinder. Plants will receive enough CO2 during fotosynthesis time but also during the dark time, when plants also need CO2 for being able to use chemical energy, stored during light time, for sintesys of self body substances (mainly glucose). In total, you will have 9 hours CO2 working instead 7 but maybe this way will use better the addition of it. Tha possible change of pH is diluted during all day long and any change could take place will have a low amplitude (maybe you know, Gauss chart ...). Statisticaly speaking, this should work and you can use better your CO2 reserve.
gabriel.basso
Member
I really like this idea Silviu. I did not know plants consume CO2 during night time. Do you use or have ever used this method on your tanks?
I thought only O2 was needed at night. I've been turning on O2 pump at night, to degass CO2 and have higher O2 levels. Do you think it may be a bad idea?
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gabriel.basso
Member
Today I monitored ph changes during the day. But since I was not confident my ph meter was calibrated (just bought it) I did this using ph 4 and 6.8 solutions. And as I was suspecting it was not well calibrated. It was reading lower values than it should.
In the end the readings showed me that ph dropped 1 degree during light period. I wrote down the results:
13h30 - CO2 on - ph 7.6 - dc dark green/blue
14h30 - ph 7.2 - dc dark green
15h30 - ph 6.7 - lights on - dc green
16h30 - ph 6.7 - dc light green
17h30 - ph 6.6 - dc light green
18h30 - ph 6.5 - dc light green
19h30 - CO2 off - ph 6.6 - dc light green
20h30 - ph 6.8 - dc light green
21h30 - Lights off - ph 7.0 - dc green
22h30 - ph 7.2 - dc dark green
I guess numbers are good.... 1 degree drop is quite acceptable for plants and fishes. If I adjust KH to 4 (now it is 2dKH) the drop will be even smaller. I will repeat these testings on sunday to make sure things are ok.
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In the end the readings showed me that ph dropped 1 degree during light period. I wrote down the results:
13h30 - CO2 on - ph 7.6 - dc dark green/blue
14h30 - ph 7.2 - dc dark green
15h30 - ph 6.7 - lights on - dc green
16h30 - ph 6.7 - dc light green
17h30 - ph 6.6 - dc light green
18h30 - ph 6.5 - dc light green
19h30 - CO2 off - ph 6.6 - dc light green
20h30 - ph 6.8 - dc light green
21h30 - Lights off - ph 7.0 - dc green
22h30 - ph 7.2 - dc dark green
I guess numbers are good.... 1 degree drop is quite acceptable for plants and fishes. If I adjust KH to 4 (now it is 2dKH) the drop will be even smaller. I will repeat these testings on sunday to make sure things are ok.
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CO2 is not consumed during the night.
Oxygen is consumed 24 hours per day and CO2 produced 24 hours per day.
During the photoperiod Oxygen is produced and CO2 is consumed.
So, during the photoperiod there is s net supply of Oxygen because the Oxygen being produced is greater than the amount being consumed.
During the night the plants compete with the animals for consumption of Oxygen and there is a net supply of CO2 since CO2 is not being consumed.
Yes, this is fine.
As your plant mass increases you will see that the pH will start to rise instead of falling more.
Cheers,
gabriel.basso
Member
I got it. So is it possible to have hi levels of CO2 and oxygen at the same time? One does not "degass" the other from the water? I mean, turning the air pump at night will only raise oxygen levels and won't decrease CO2.
Actually it will drop less right? Because there will be more CO2 consumption.
Getting back to rising dKH subject (using KHCO3). Another thing that is driving me to do this (besides smaller ph drop) is because with 4 dKH instead of 2 I guess system would need less CO2 injection to reach 20ppm. Am I wrong about this?
I'm not sure if every Cerges reactor or only mine requires a high bubble rate (now it is uncountable) to work properly. But even the way it is it takes 2 hours to reach light green color on DC. With 4 dKH I guess I'd be able to adjust to a lower bubble rate or at least if I mantain a high bubble rate it would reach 20ppm faster.
So many questions... sorry about that hehe I really appreciate your help guys. Thanks
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The amount of light and the amount of plant mass will determine the total consumption. It is possible to have the consumption level so high that the pH rises. In any case, yes it will either fall less, or rise.
Yes, you are wrong. CO2 does not care about the KH of water.
There are only three parameters that affect the solubility of CO2 in water:
Pressure, Temperature and Salinity
High pressure increases the solubility (that's why we inject pressurized gas).
High temperature reduces the solubility.
High salt content reduces the solubility, so that marine water holds less CO2 than freshwater under the same temperature and atmospheric pressure.
Additionally, trying to minimize the pH drop has no value whatsoever.
So neither of these goals are worthwhile.
Sorry, I've never used that reactor so cannot offer any advice on improving it's efficiency.
Cheers,
