current setup and recommendations

[techfool]

Long, long before your filter is over stretched you will see that your tank is becoming overcrowded. I know that I simply cannot squeeze in one more fish.
i stopped paying attention to calculators a long time ago. Cories in the wild move in groups of thousands so why is 6 the new minimum and not 5,or 4? I do a lot of research, observe the fish instore as much as possible, and then come to my own conclusion. Plants help a lot in easing overcrowding. Some of my fish I hardly see as they like to sit in the plants and that's fine by me.
I will say though that if I were to do it all again I would have fewer species with more of each species. I think that looks more natural than pick n mix. But it's down to personal preference.

 

[EmannAquarium]

hi techfool...what would be the signs to look out for in the filter pls...and also what would be your recommendations for my list....the current one is:

1xbala shark (10cm long)
1xrainbow shark (6cm long)
4xrainbow fish 9(6cm long)
1x leopard catfish
2xkoi angelfish (8cm long)
6xcongo tetras

I am also still looking for that particular fish to put amongst all that would sort make a hit when seen in the aquarium as well.

any advise appreciated.

 

[EmannAquarium]

Hi ceg4048...hope u had a good wkend...

so I did the monitoring as advised for the duration I could...pls note below....i have also completed the left spray bar (holes slightly tilted up as per right hand one) and replaced the skimmer with a filter...so total filter capacity as taken from the pumps are 1000+720+600=2320l/hr. Pls note below (timeH) and also attached video showing surface agitation with power head tilted upwards - I had to leave this at the current level as mounting instructions state to install at minimum 10cm below surface.

1500:8.0
1530:8.0
1600:8.0
1630:8.0
1700:8.0:Lights on
1730:7.5
1800:7.5
1830:7.5
1900:7.5
1930:7.5
2000:7.0
2030:7.0
2100:7.0
2130:7.0
2200:7.0:Lights off

Kindly advise how best to dial in the CO2 as the pH change has not happened within the lights on time...it started at about 2.5 hrs from CO2 on...so would it be inject more CO2 or else less surface agitation maybe....I hope you have enough details and let me know if something is not clear...tried to keep videos as short as possible as well.

This is the link for the videos as I could not upload them here..if you can copy and paste into a browser to watch them pls.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NBP5x6KpTry5r5lg2

tks a lot

 

[techfool]

hi techfool...what would be the signs to look out for in the filter pls...and also what would be your recommendations for my list....the current one is:

1xbala shark (10cm long)
1xrainbow shark (6cm long)
4xrainbow fish 9(6cm long)
1x leopard catfish
2xkoi angelfish (8cm long)
6xcongo tetras

I am also still looking for that particular fish to put amongst all that would sort make a hit when seen in the aquarium as well.

any advise appreciated.

You're limited by the rainbow shark. They are obnoxious to other fish, particularly slower moving ones. You need to build you aquarium around that. Is the leopard catfish a cory? Cories need company, and they are more fun to watch in bigger groups. I don't know the other fish to have an opinion.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Emann,
Thanks, yes, it was a restful weekend. Weather was nice as well, which is always a bonus at this time of year at my location!

OK, I've had a look at your videos and the flow & distribution appear to be really good. If anything, it might be a bit much for high finned fish like your angels. I don't think they appreciate high flow as they originate in slow moving waters, however, those in the video seem to be moving about quite willingly. The tetras, on the other hand seem to congregating on the far right side of the tank. It may be that you can do without the wavemaker. I like the placement and ripple of the water surface by the spraybars. That looks fine to me. I can see movement even in the lowest carpet plants but because of the placement of the wavemaker I'm not sure if the flow at that location is moving from front to back, as it should be, or whether the movement is due to collision of flow between the spraybars and the wavemaker, which would be bad in the long term.

That pH profile looks absolutely horrible. Are you saying that the CO2 goes on at or before 1500? That is unbelievable.
Something is seriously wrong.
The pH you show at 2000 is the value you are looking for to happen at lights on (1700).

So you mentioned that you have a DIY inline diffuser into one spraybar and an Up inline diffuser into the other spraybar correct. From what I read, Up Atomizers are highly regarded and I don't know anything about your DIY unit, but I reckon you must have a gas leak somewhere or a kinked gas line. There is no way it takes 5 hours to drop the pH by 1 unit.

After checking for gas leaks the only thing I could suggest is to check the working pressure of the Up Atomizerand to slowly increase the injection rate. Perhaps you can provide more information about your DIY. Also if you can provide a schematic or annotated photos of your gas injection circuit we might be able to troubleshoot more effectively.

Cheers,

 

[EmannAquarium]

hi Ceg4048....wow seems im still a long way to go to achieve that 1pH drop...so...

flow we seem to be ok...I can reduce the speed of the powerhead to 20% (currently at 40%) and maybe point it more towards the front to ensure it compliments flow of spraybars back to front.

correct on the pH...CO2 on at 1500...lights on at 1700...no drop in that time whatsoever...I am attaching a schematic of the CO2 setup...the DIY is a simple clear plastic tap sealed at both ends with a 50mm ceramic diffuser in it...a hole to attach the CO2 pipe and outflow and spraybar connections...all is beneath water level so in case any leaks are present gas or water are still being carried in the flow of the spraybar then....during CO2 on i can see bubbles coming out and in front of both spray bars at a good rate as well achieving the soda like effect. There is a main line from the CO2 cylinder regulator - bubble counter - splitter with both ends having seperate valves and out to the diffusers....count rate in bubble counter is quite fast...no way to manage to read bubbles per second.

I will later on check for any kinked line...as for leakages, i had the unit checked at the supplier on filling the cylinder up....

I will then wait for any other hints from your end before trying to increase injection rate...hope i manage to nail this one right...as this should hopefully conclude this project and then proceed to tank maintenance.

once again appreciate a lot your interest and assistance.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Emann,
OK, well, looking at the schematic, there are a few places where there could be leaks. No movement in pH for 2 hours means that the CO2 lines are not being pressurized properly. It's not that I distrust your supplier but something may have happened when you made the connection to the cylinder, or when you made connections to the other components.

First, make sure that the main cylinder valve is turned fully open to ensure that you are getting the full pressure (40 bar or more) from the cylinder.
When you open the needle valve the working pressure should be around 2 Bar or so. I don't have exact numbers for all setups, so these are just typical numbers.
If the working pressure is insufficient then atomizers such as the Up unit will not function correctly. I think 2 Bar is the minimum.
There should be a fine mist coming from that spraybar that the Up is connected to. If the bubbles are large then that means it is not functioning and that indicates the working pressure is too low.


I'm sure you have washing up liquid in the kitchen? Mix a little with water and either put some in a spray bottle or use a small paint brush and apply to ALL connections, including the entire regulator, the entire bubble counter and the entire splitter. Any leaks at these connections will show up as bubbles. You can also paint or spray on along the actual CO2 tubing itself to see if there is a puncture or crack in the line.

Also, what is the KH of your water? That will affect your pH reading.
Are you using Bromothymol Blue for your pH test readings.

Not doubting you but in a case like this, one has to question every aspect...

Cheers,

 

[EmannAquarium]

hi ceg4048...no worries on doubting me...it is infact what i want to ensure I am doing things correctly with the help of others more experienced then me.

can you please have a look at the attached....took it just now....high pressure reads shy of 5 bar...low pressure is 0.28bar...pls look at the flow and the way co2 is exiting from the bubble counter...it is quite visible i hope.

i look for your critique on this before i start checking for leaks....hardness reading with test strip is 8dkH....pH tester is the standard JBL test...the solution that came with it...looks more of a reddish colour i think.

look forward for help as I am starting to scratch my head a bit....seems it is going to take longer to dial in then i thought but will keep following suggestions...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UtkXhgDWVlQBQsuA2

tks a lot

 

[ceg4048]

OK, no worries.
I can't quite make out the bar scale (sorry, poor eyesight) but I can just make out the inside scale which reads in PSI on that low pressure gauge. It looks like about 40PSI(?) which should be sufficient for the UP. The video clearly shows the bubble counter action...soooo....there must be a leak at the bubble counter or downstream of it. There may be multiple leaks. There is no way that much gas, pumped into the tank, has no effect on pH for 2 hours.

Please go ahead and check for leaks all along that circuit.

The following is all just guesswork, OK?

It could be possible that there is a pressure drop at the splitter and that the inlet pressure at the UP is too low because some of it is diverted to to the DIY line.
If there is no mist coming from the spraybar connected to the UP then that should indicate a problem with the UP. The DIY could be stealing the pressure needed for the UP to operate correctly.

Would it be possible to disable the DIY line? I think the splitter should have a shutoff for each of the channels? If not then perhaps you can use a spare length of CO2 tubing and plumb it directly to the UP and bypass the DIY?

The problem with large bubbles is that they have a very high bouyancy so if the DIY is running and spitting out large bubbles while the UP is not operating due to pressure loss, then the gas just comes out of the DIY spraybar and exits the tank quickly without having a chance to dissolve properly. That could explain the slow pH drop.

Maybe someone who owns an UP can chime in here but I'm fairly certain that you should be seeing mist or fog coming from the UP line. That is the whole point of UP Atomizer.

Cheers,

 

[EmannAquarium]

hi clive....so i will go the route of checking for leaks ...

i was also thinking if I would switch off the filters and let CO2 on, I should be able to see the outflow form the diffusers similar to what is coming out of the bubble counter no...i may have an indication if this equates to similar flows maybe....the only thing is that the up diffuser has quite a dark cover which may not make it easy to see bubbles coming out of it...

i will also post the video on the co2 art forum maybe someone with experience with this equipment may comment on that type of flow out of the bubble counter.

 

[jolt100]

Hi, I have had problems with UP inline atomisers and bubble counters supplied by CO2Art which started leaking and giving a low pH drop even with a high bubble count. In all cases a real investigation with soap solution revealed the problems, cracks in the body or joints of the UP, they started to seal the joint on the "new" version which was originally intended to be able to break down for easy cleaning of the ceramic, and I have one which leaks through the sealed threads. One bubble counter leaked at the upper acrylic thread, even with new seal and PTFE tape.

As Clive suggested go through each join and around each component and you'll probably find a leak.
Hope this helps
John

 

[EmannAquarium]

hi clive and jolt100...i have made some soapy water and tested around regulator, bubble counter, splitter and lines....could not see any bubbles that may indicate a leak...

what i noted is that on the two way splitter that has seperate controls I had their respective valves opened just slightly...now I made just a quarter turn maybe and I can definitely see more CO2 coming out of the spray bars...could this mean something and shall i retest pH profile now....if this is the case and with no leaks evident where was all this pressure building up then as I can only think that flow through bubble counter is significant but I was then restricting it too much from the valves of the splitter...can this be the case maybe?

tks

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Emann,
Yes, I'm fairly certain that the pressure builds up along the entire circuit and perhaps coming out into the DIY reactor as large bubbles since this might offer a path of less resistance than through the UP. So it appears to take 2 hours to build up enough pressure to drive both or one of the reactors as we can see the pH start to drop after that. If there are no leaks in the lines then you should be able to resolve the problem with the splitter. You can play with the valves to get the drop but I would always start by opening the valves fully and reducing the injection rate. I would only turn one of them towards the closed position in order to balance the flow between the two sides. So for example if more gas was coming out of the DIY and not as much from the UP side then start closing the DIY valve. This should have the effect of reducing the total gas consumption. Total gas flow should be controlled by the needle valve on the regulator, not by having both splitter valves near the closed position.

In any case, that's the way I would approach use of the splitter. The instructions might say something different....

Cheers,

 

[EmannAquarium]

hi clive...this is making a change...at the moment i can see much more tiny bubbles in the aquarium by just the small mere turn on both valves of the splitter...pls see attached...most of the plants valisneria, java fern and the echinodorus are full of tiny bubbles on their leaves...any idea what is this...also at some time i can also note like bubbles being realeased off them...again what can this be...

in any case tomorrow i will adjust needle valve for total flow and then fine tune the flow from the splitter as per your advise...

great help as usual clive...seems i just learnt another thing on this setup....maybe let me know on the bubbles i asked above and shown in the picture.

will revert with further updates.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Emann,
This is really good news. Some of the bubbles of course, are the CO2 bubbles which adhere to the surface of the plants. This is excellent because the CO2 bubbles that stick are absorbed by the leaves in much greater quantity than if the gas were dissolved in the water.

The bubbles that you see being ejected from the leaves are Oxygen bubbles. Of course, this is good for your fish and for the aerobic bacteria in the filter, water and sediment.

All the Oxygen that in in our planetary atmosphere was put there by plants, who absorb CO2 and remove the Oxygen from water (H2O). Plants use the Hydrogen from the water (H) and use it to power important reactions that allow them to turn the Carbon from CO2 into a type of sugar called glucose.

When you eat a fruit, such as oranges or figs, the sweetness contained in the fruit is due to the sugar that the plant created from CO2.

We refer to these bubbles as "Pearling" because the little Oxygen bubbles reminds us of shiny pearls. As the plants release the Oxygen, the water surrounding the leaf becomes saturated with Oxygen and this gas no longer can dissolve in the water, so it escapes as bubbles.

So this tells us that we are on the right track because one of the ways we determine the efficiency of CO2 and nutrient usage is by the amount of Oxygen being produce by the plant.

Let us know how it goes, but again, be careful to monitor the health of the fish as you make the adjustments.

Cheers,

 

[EmannAquarium]

ok Clive..tks a lot..yesterday I knew that something was on the right track with the change that happened after I noted the valves of the splitter and opened them slightly more...so I guess at this stage I shall continue increasing the injection rate until I reach the 1pH drop in at least a 2hour period right? of course monitoring the fish continuously...

just for curiosity, what happens when the pH drops by 1..since the injection rate has been increased will the pH stop dropping at some point as I believe then disaster with the fish will surely happen right?

 

[ceg4048]

just for curiosity, what happens when the pH drops by 1..since the injection rate has been increased will the pH stop dropping at some point as I believe then disaster with the fish will surely happen right?

Well, Emann, you have just realized the problem facing all of us and now you understand the second half of the enigma which is CO2.
You must have an injection rate that will drop the pH by 1 or so within an hour or two, but if the CO2 continues to saturate the water after that too much, you will kill the fish.

Ideally, when the lights go on and within a half hour or so, the plants will start to uptake the CO2, and their use of the gas removes it from the water, so there is a balance of injection and consumption so that the minimum pH (maximum CO2 saturation) is at lights on and then the pH stabilizes (or only rises slightly) at that value throughout the photoperiod.

This all depends on the flow rate and the distribution techniques, as well as the mass of the plants in the tank. More mass means a greater consumption. So even if you get everything perfectly today, within a few weeks or so the plants grow, the block flow and they consume more CO2. Later, you may do a large trim and therefore reduce the mass. Now your injection rate is too much and the CO2 continues to saturate because there is less mass so the fish might suffer. So it's a never ending battle to ensure that there is enough injection rate but not too much.

That's why it's good to have a pH pen so that you can regularly monitor the performance, based on the pH indication and so that you can know when to reduce the injection and when it is necessary to increase it.

Cheers,

 

[EmannAquarium]

ok..very interesting and well noted clive...do you have any recommendation for types of pH pens that are not that much expensive pls...I am grasping the importance of monitoring this closely very well now.

also how do you recommend to proceed...increase injection rate until i achieve the 1pH drop for now only...what about the lights...i m still maintaining the heliolux at 80% luminosity for only 3 hours...should i start increasing intensity and duration as well pls.

since these two days of adjusting the splitter, i am noting brown/green algae on the front glass and sides of the filter housing...which type is this pls and what does this mean and how should one control it....

i know lots more questions sort of coming and hope I am not being pedantic with you but oh my if there is still a lot for me to learn.

thanks always for your interest and look forward for your replies of the various questions above.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Emann,
Well the pens range from about 10 Euro at the bottom end to perhaps 150 Euro at the top. You certainly don't need to spend 150, but I also would try to avoid the units that are in the 10 Euro range. Check this post from another thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-green-reaper.49632/page-3#post-505569

also how do you recommend to proceed...increase injection rate until i achieve the 1pH drop for now only...what about the lights...i m still maintaining the heliolux at 80% luminosity for only 3 hours...should i start increasing intensity and duration as well pls.

Well, first of all, you really ought not to be thinking about increasing the light, especially if you are starting to see algae. If anything, you should be thinking about reducing the intensity.

Well it seems that you injection rate is already quite high, isn't it? I would have thought that the best thing to do would be to open the splitter valves until the pH drop is achieved. You may actually need to reduce the injection rate. I trust the UP only because I'm familiar with other peoples experience with it, but I do not really have any data on your DIY reactor but as long as the UP is functioning correctly then it would be better to open these valve up toward the maximum and monitot the fish and pH drop.

I am not really sure what type of algae we are talking about. Really need to see pictures because they species of algae tells you what the problem is, so we need to identify the algae. Very often, we fix one thing and we realize that it was hiding another problem. The reason we did not see the other problem was because the thing that we fixed was a much bigger problem.

For sure, you need to physically remove the algae during the water change. We need to know if it is soft and slimy or rough and difficult to remove.

Cheers,

 

[EmannAquarium]

Hi Clive,

a wkend full of trials here...above all on your advise i also ordered a pH pen which should arrive by mid to end of week first of all.

kept the juwel heliolux at the same luminosity and duration so as not to increase either. I have also opened full the splitter valves yesterday but did not manage to get any pH drop...today I also adjusted a bit more the injection rate and managed to get the first colour change at around two hours...at CO2 off, diffuser was also turning yellowish from the green colour as well. The only fish that seemed to concern me are the rainbow fish...sharks, congo, angels, catfish seemed still happy but rainbows were at the surface towards the 4th hour of CO2 on....i would like to wait for the pH pen now before I adjust again in order to get a decent profile...what is your advise on this pleaseand is it ok to proceed like this??...by the way plants full of CO2 bubbles and pearling galore as per my query of a previous thread.

with the water change i also cleared the algae we spoke about from the front glass..very soft green algae and not difficult at all to remove....if i identified it correctly it could be due to low CO2...what do you think.

will keep you posted and await your feedback.