250 liters* substrate advice

[Fred13]

Hello,

I am planning to aquascape a 250 liters tank near Christmas.

I want a long term substrate which does not turns to mud and is easy to plant delicate roots such as hemianthus.
My last setup had prodibidio soil, a volcanic soil such as ada and others. I experienced my worst algae issues ever , a filamentous algae who made me give up after hundreds of efforts. It may not has any relation with the substrate but even the idea makes me looking somewhere else.

I am interested in tropica plant growth substrate (not the complete soil but the under gravel layer). It seems that tropica knows well what she suggests for a planted aquarium. About 1 cm of this and cover it with 4cm gravel (1-3mm) above. Whats your opinion about that?

Also, what if you put 1 cm of this substrate and cover it with 3-4 cm of eco-complete which has also a long term usage because of its high rate of absorption? Does this combo works? I found some references about eco-complete that it increases PH. I need a clear answer for this because my fish will need a slightly acid water parameters.

In my country i have tropica, flurite, prodibio,eco-complete, fluval stratum and dennerle substrates.

Thank you for your time

 

[splatteredbrainz]

I personally find eco-complete too sharp for the scaleless fish I keep. I too need an alternative. I was considering ada but am turned off by your muddy experience with a similar product. I'm currently using dirt with a top layer of sand and growth is good as long as I keep up with fert dosing but if I miss a few days or go away for the weekend the plants suffer. The eco-complete is in another tank which seems to have a phosphate deficiency after a year or so

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[Fred13]

I believe i wont have any issues with its shape because i am planning a full planted tank. The Ph references are much more important because if it does increase the PH and the general hardness thats not for me..

I am waiting some answers about tropica plant growth under gravel substrate. It doesnt change water parameters at all and seems so effective long term! Let me know..

 

[MarkyP]

I have used Tropica Plant Growth Substrate on my first scape and capped it with Tropica Soil no real issues with it at all --- I have now moved the tank and rescaped again using Tropica Plant Growth Substrate but this time capped with sand, all ok so far.
I have read some horror stories about eco complete and personally 'would not' use it. Have a look on Tropica's website most of the inspiration tanks use TPGS and cap with gravel or sand.

 

[Vandal Gardener]

Hi Fred,

The Tropica plant growth substrate is the dog's dangly bits, be aware that you can get a bit of pea soup if it's not capped properly and if you're pulling up long rooted plants, working in the substrate. I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

As for the eco complete, I've read mixed reviews on here with a couple of members being disapointed in the results with at least two giving up and completely replacing. Is your 250 still up and running with the old substrate? I'd be tempted to give the old one a rinse in tank water to get rid of dust etc and reuse that on top of the recommended tropica.

My knowledge isn't good enough to give you a scientific answer, but I think your algae might have more to do with CO2/light intensity/flow circulation and your nutrient dosing than the substrate - but that's just a theory.

The other thing I read somewhere on my many rambling internet sessions that the longer your substrate has been in there your aquarium is building up an immune system - although I'm also aware of bba spores but I can't remember where I read it. It made sense in my world.

I had eco complete years ago and have to say I was disappointed especially when you consider it wasn't far off the cost ADA/Tropica substrate stuff which I'm still under the impression are the Rolls Royce of substrates.

Good luck

 

[Fred13]

I have used Tropica Plant Growth Substrate on my first scape and capped it with Tropica Soil no real issues with it at all --- I have now moved the tank and rescaped again using Tropica Plant Growth Substrate but this time capped with sand, all ok so far.
I have read some horror stories about eco complete and personally 'would not' use it. Have a look on Tropica's website most of the inspiration tanks use TPGS and cap with gravel or sand.

Hi Fred,

The Tropica plant growth substrate is the dog's dangly bits, be aware that you can get a bit of pea soup if it's not capped properly and if you're pulling up long rooted plants, working in the substrate. I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

As for the eco complete, I've read mixed reviews on here with a couple of members being disapointed in the results with at least two giving up and completely replacing. Is your 250 still up and running with the old substrate? I'd be tempted to give the old one a rinse in tank water to get rid of dust etc and reuse that on top of the recommended tropica.

My knowledge isn't good enough to give you a scientific answer, but I think your algae might have more to do with CO2/light intensity/flow circulation and your nutrient dosing than the substrate - but that's just a theory.

The other thing I read somewhere on my many rambling internet sessions that the longer your substrate has been in there your aquarium is building up an immune system - although I'm also aware of bba spores but I can't remember where I read it. It made sense in my world.

I had eco complete years ago and have to say I was disappointed especially when you consider it wasn't far off the cost ADA/Tropica substrate stuff which I'm still under the impression are the Rolls Royce of substrates.

Good luck

Hello again guys and thank you for your answers!
I have already ordered 6 bags of Tropicas plant growth substrate. I cannot find any wrong with this , everything seem so tested. I am planning to cap it with fine gravel 1-3mm. I will use about 4cms above it so i believe this is enough to keep it down.
Markyp tropica soil is tempting and your combo was powerful.But this time i want to totally avoid soil. It will turn mud , may break and lose its beneficial characteristics . Gravel and every type of substrate such as sand will turn somehow ''active'' after several months. I dont disagree that soil is a huge blast for plants since day 1 though.

Vandal thank you for the long rooted plants advice. I didnt know that, now i have this in mind! No my tank isn't running atm.
As for my huge algae issue i know for sure 2 of mistakes. First , i had too much light (1 w /l , about 60-65lumen) and secondly i started fertilization too early.
I v done lots of research about lightning and i finally understood that too much light isn't always the key. Most of plans will grow even on low light conditions ,slower but still grow. BTW i had success with hemianthus cuba using 0,5w/l even if references say that it needs intense lightning. It was growing slow but healthy.
At this setup i will have 4 x 39 T5 HO with great reflectors. This is about 0,7w/l and 41 loumen. Plenty of light i guess. Tropica has 40+ loumens as a barrier for advanced plants. We will see

I have 1 more question about substrate. After 2-3 months and if everything is balanced and plants well rooted inside substrate i am planning to add a small group of corydoras , probably trilineatus.
For that reason i am gonna have an open-sand area in my scape. Maybe at the front i havent think of it yet.
I am looking forward to find the ''heavier sand''. I dont really know much about sand and i remember a friend of mine having a tank with corys with a heavy sand that corys couldn't easily lift and mess things around.
Which is the heaviest sand grain i can find??

I have also read that corys can be happy in small fine gravel but i am not that much into of trying this and have issues with their health.

Thank you so much for your time!

 

[MarkyP]

corydoras generally 'do not' do well with a gravel substrate and most people who keep them use a sand substrate. A 4 cm capping of say children's play sand would be fine the corys wont dig that deep they only sift through the top layer in search of food.
what size bags of plant substrate have you ordered? you only need a 2 cm layer at the most.
I would not use the reflectors on the tubes when you first plant the tank it would be too much light too soon

 

[Vandal Gardener]

Re your corys - my trigon has the the smallest grade rounded gravel (it was the cheapest from the lfs and when I first started nearly 20 years ago I had no idea about plants/planted substrates, for all I've read about them no liking gravel and having a negative effect I can't see it from experience. I have 7 Bronze corys who are like tanks with hipster beards (beautiful whiskers/barbels). The only thing I have to say about corys are they are the aquascapers and they decide eventually where everything goes - I may plant it where I want but they move it where it suits them. This is a royal PIA when it comes to fine carpet plants, but keep it from getting boring. The funny thing is they know better than me where the plants will thrive or so it seems as a lot of my success has been purely accidental.

As Marky P recommends think about reducing your lighting intensity/ period to the minimum at the start 6-7 hours and even only use 2 of the 4 t5s. I would start with 2 bulbs for the whole photoperiod and 4 starting with only an hour and working up when the plant mass has started to establish and work up.

Are you going to be injecting co2? This will be key if you're going high intensity lighting (which it will be - I have 2 t5 28w over approx 180 litres). Also have you thought about dry starting?

Also I'd have a two tiered plan of plants - at the start buy a lot of fast growing stems to soak up the excess plenty recommendations here with a view that they will be removed as it establishes for more tricky ones.

 

[Fred13]

corydoras generally 'do not' do well with a gravel substrate and most people who keep them use a sand substrate. A 4 cm capping of say children's play sand would be fine the corys wont dig that deep they only sift through the top layer in search of food.
what size bags of plant substrate have you ordered? you only need a 2 cm layer at the most.
I would not use the reflectors on the tubes when you first plant the tank it would be too much light too soon

Re your corys - my trigon has the the smallest grade rounded gravel (it was the cheapest from the lfs and when I first started nearly 20 years ago I had no idea about plants/planted substrates, for all I've read about them no liking gravel and having a negative effect I can't see it from experience. I have 7 Bronze corys who are like tanks with hipster beards (beautiful whiskers/barbels). The only thing I have to say about corys are they are the aquascapers and they decide eventually where everything goes - I may plant it where I want but they move it where it suits them. This is a royal PIA when it comes to fine carpet plants, but keep it from getting boring. The funny thing is they know better than me where the plants will thrive or so it seems as a lot of my success has been purely accidental.

As Marky P recommends think about reducing your lighting intensity/ period to the minimum at the start 6-7 hours and even only use 2 of the 4 t5s. I would start with 2 bulbs for the whole photoperiod and 4 starting with only an hour and working up when the plant mass has started to establish and work up.

Are you going to be injecting co2? This will be key if you're going high intensity lighting (which it will be - I have 2 t5 28w over approx 180 litres). Also have you thought about dry starting?

Also I'd have a two tiered plan of plants - at the start buy a lot of fast growing stems to soak up the excess plenty recommendations here with a view that they will be removed as it establishes for more tricky ones.

So, you do believe that corys will do fine even with a small grain fine gravel? I am thinking of finding a ''heavy'' sand so they wont mess the scape but i dont have any clue whats the correct grain for this job. Marky i ordered 1L sized bags. I think its more than enough if you think that a wide space will be open for sand.
By saying they are aquascapers do you mean that they tend to unroot plants? (This is an issue) I am planning to add them after 2 months while everything is already rooted deeply if that makes sense.

As for my lightning setup i have problem with this.. I cannot choose how many bulbs i want to use. This lightning system works only if 4 bulbs are connected. I know this seems a lot for startup. I think that i can start with 5 hours photo period and no ferts for at least 20 days and see how it goes from there.
Yes, i will inject Co2 . I have a bazooka , an inline diffuser but i will probably try to find a reactor for completely dissolution. I am not a big fan of microbubbles. I have a two stage regulator with integrated solenoid and 2kg co2 bottle. I am thinking of setting up co2 to open about 3 hours before lights and close with them.

As for my filter i am between EHEIM PRO4+ 600 or JBL Crystal profi 1501. Both looking nice and powerful for my liters but i cant decide yet. Fluval fx4 is also a powerful filter but its a no only because of its hoses.

And....finally my plants will be 1-2 GROW (the in vitro). Do my substrate combo works for them? I have great experience with them but in soil . I v read that in vitro plants are a bit more difficult to acclimatize and we should give them the best environment from day 1..

Thats all for now..and i am glad i share so much info with you guys so i can prepare a well organized start!

 

[Fred13]

Sorry for repost but i forgot to mention something about co2 distribution and micro bubbles. Some hobbyists , pretty experienced suggested me to setup my Inline diffuser into INLET and Not Outlet. They found out that micro bubbles are totally gone and they achieve better co2 concentration with less bubbles/per minute. I have read that this technique may damage the filter long term. They are telling me that this never happens and i should give a try.

So...if i dont find a reactor is this maybe an option?

 

[Vandal Gardener]

All i can say is my gravel is rounded (pea? gravel) so no sharp edges but yeah the corys dig deep into it, I've been trying to lay a carpet of glosso then marsilea then monte carlo since I got back into it and got a jumbled mix of all three but the corys are in their element with their noses deep in it so yeah they uproot fine rooted plants, my stems are resilient enough (think maybe because their better anchored) crypts and echinordorus do fine too, sometimes need a little time. Re substrates and corys - two types of substrates doesn't go since they mix and level out mines. You'll end up with a two tone substrate and be forever trying to keep then apart.

A dry start might give you a fighting chance of letting your carpet lay roots before the onslaught (i keep a bit of gravel in the back (hidden by stems) and around my wood in the centre so they do have dedicated cory zones - hahahahah or so I thought - lovely little anarchists that they are - everywhere is a cory zone

If this is a problem have you thought about pygmy corys? They are tiny so you would need loads in a 250 to get the same effect but the bonus is they swim all over not as much on the substrate - they are perfect miniatures but my nano took a couple of months to lay a carpet as they're not much bigger than a leaf of marislea.

The invitro can take a couple of slow weeks to get started but if your CO2 is on point then it should be minimal melt etc, also if you can start without livestock you can blast the co2 through the cycle phase and reduce when you add fish/shrimp.

Fluval/Eheim/JBL - horses for courses whatever you prefer go a bit above the flow rate for your tank (10 x) saying that mines is not my total flow on 180 ish is 150 ish and I think that might be being generous to my eheim. I use this for co2 and it does a grand job https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12mm-16mm-Aquarium-CO2-Atomizer-Syatem-Diffuser-Newly-Safety-NutsR-system/182651428204?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

ETA - just saw about the diffuser placement - yeah sucking into the filter so it's being dissolved/absorbed (not sure of the term) in the filter, I had a fluval 405 where the plastic clips inside the filter erroded away (it took years approx decade) which I suspect was as a result of co2 damage - can't be sure I'm a heavy handed oaf

All the best

 

[Silviu Man]

Hi!

Between Eheim and JBL I would choose Eheim. But, in the end, what is more important is not the power of the pump but the volume of the space for biological filtration as far as the best filtration is made not when the flow of the water is very high but when the retention time of the water on the filtration medium is optimal.

+1 for Vandal advice. In vitro plants have poor roots and will fix themselves in the substrate in time. So, a dry start or a multiplication before planting is the best way to avoid uprooting or/and melting of them after planting. With one exception : the plant that are epiphytes, like Bucephalandra, that support both type of planting and start. Using multiplication you can avoid problems with algae too but be aware there might be some problems with moulds. Nevertheless, plants coming from a dry start in the form of Wabi Kusa are strong and pass through adaptation/aclimatization process faster and better.

Regarding CO2, again we discuss about optimal addition not about how much we can apply. A too fast plants growing can also be a reason for uprooting. So, in my opinion, you should stay on plant supplier recommendation regarding CO2 level according with difficulty of the plants and pH tolerated level of them.

Good luck,
Silviu

 

[Fred13]

Hi!

Between Eheim and JBL I would choose Eheim. But, in the end, what is more important is not the power of the pump but the volume of the space for biological filtration as far as the best filtration is made not when the flow of the water is very high but when the retention time of the water on the filtration medium is optimal.

+1 for Vandal advice. In vitro plants have poor roots and will fix themselves in the substrate in time. So, a dry start or a multiplication before planting is the best way to avoid uprooting or/and melting of them after planting. With one exception : the plant that are epiphytes, like Bucephalandra, that support both type of planting and start. Using multiplication you can avoid problems with algae too but be aware there might be some problems with moulds. Nevertheless, plants coming from a dry start in the form of Wabi Kusa are strong and pass through adaptation/aclimatization process faster and better.

Regarding CO2, again we discuss about optimal addition not about how much we can apply. A too fast plants growing can also be a reason for uprooting. So, in my opinion, you should stay on plant supplier recommendation regarding CO2 level according with difficulty of the plants and pH tolerated level of them.

Good luck,
Silviu

Hello Silviu and thank you for your comments.

I have some questions because i cant understand few terms. What do you mean by multiplication? And what is ''moulds''? Sorry but i want to fully understand your points in order to do the best.

As for co2 my issue is not the amount of co2. For this i will go as you say. I want to find a way for complete dissolution because i dont like micro bubles around. Its only an aesthetical factor.

Thank you very much!

 

[splatteredbrainz]

He means "molds". As far as multiplication goes I think he means scale up accordingly when using this formula/method

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[Silviu Man]

Sorry, I am not english man so maybe sometime I make mistakes or confusion in terms.

By multiplication I mean to put the plants in a dry system on substrate, right like in aquarium but without water, and reproduce there a greenhouse effect that aloud plants to thrive. There, because of high moisture, ferts from substrate and CO2 addition, plants grow and develope strong roots. When plants are strong enough, are transferred in the tank. Is a common way for strat-up or to make a Wabi Kusa. It is also a way to adapt submerged plants to emerged grow. Most of the plants for aquarium are cultivated this way. Most of the plants for aquarium comes from emerged environment, so this is a way to reverse the process.

Mould or mold! I found both words used. Is a simple form of vegetation that grow on many substrates. From a kind of mold penicillin is extracted. Also a lot of enzymes. Many of its excrate metabolites that are very toxic, like Zearalenon, Ochratoxin and Aflatoxin.

OK, i've got the ideea about CO2.

 

[Silviu Man]

He means "molds". As far as multiplication goes I think he means scale up accordingly when using this formula/method

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Yes, I mean mold but I also find this :
"a fungus that produces a superficial growth on various kinds of damp or decaying organic matter".
Sorry for confusion!

 

[Fred13]

I am not so ''warm'' about the dry method...

My last setup had many in vitro plants. Ok i had few melt but i never lost all the plant. In general , they did great in water.

I had active soil. I dont know if this combo now (my undergravel tropica substrate) will work the same for them.
Shall i go with classic rock-wool pots? I am afraid of losing my money.... ^^

1 last question about substrate itself. If i mix tropica plant growth with dennerle professional my water will be softer because of dennerles ability to soften water and decrease ph. Is this a good option or i should avoid ?

Thank you!

 

[Fred13]

Hello guys ,

So tropica plant substrate already came !

I am now looking forward to find the best gravel type to cap it. I remind you that i want to grow hemianthus cuba and other delicate root plants.
What should i looking for? Grain sizes, types etc?
Is a gravel with 1-3mm grain size too big or its just fine ?

Thank you!

 

[roadmaster]

Smooth fine gravel 1-3 mm is fine for plant's and cory's.
Would were it me, have deeper substrate/soil on bottom and not too deep cap or top layer to allow root's to better find their way down into base layer.
Just need to not pull up re-arrange plant's frequently which they don't like and creates a bit of a mess if not done very carefully/slowly.

 

[Fred13]

Smooth fine gravel 1-3 mm is fine for plant's and cory's.
Would were it me, have deeper substrate/soil on bottom and not too deep cap or top layer to allow root's to better find their way down into base layer.
Just need to not pull up re-arrange plant's frequently which they don't like and creates a bit of a mess if not done very carefully/slowly.

I am attaching you a picture of a gravel i found. Its size is 1-3mm grain. Is this ok for hemianthus cuba?

Maybe i need a quartz gravel 0,8-1,2mm such as dennerle or no?

And last question what is lime-free gravel? It means that it does not alters Ph?

Thank you!