Questions on photo period

[zozo]

All the plants in nature grow where they thrive, if not they disappear.

I think you hit the nail on the head.. Have thriving plants is the secret.. And not hardheaded persist and try to grow what doesn't thrive.

 

[Angus]

All the plants in nature grow where they thrive, if not they disappear.

This is how i grow most of my plants if i am honest... survival of the fittest not necessarily the prettiest.

 

[tiger15]

All the plants in nature grow where they thrive, if not they disappear.

Make sense, but you can do the same with tank plants. Walstad suggests planting a bunch of varieties to see what work and toss out the rest.

 

[sciencefiction]

I am exploring if increasing light duration can induce faster growth without inducing but out pacing algae.

Even in a low tech tank high intensity and shorter period is superior to plant growth/health compared to lower intensity longer period of light. Playing with light duration is a limited game....

 

[tiger15]

Even in a low tech tank high intensity and shorter period is superior to plant growth/health compared to lower intensity longer period of light. Playing with light duration is a limited game....

I believe you that majority show class planted tanks get only 6 to 8 hour photo period. But how do you enjoy your tanks in darkness most of the day or you want to show off to visitors. Do you turn the light on momentarily and off again after viewing or else risk algae pop up left and right.

So perhaps more important than light duration is light intensity. Most folk expose their plants to way too much light, and this is where most of the problems start.
The higher the light intensity the more difficult to optimise flow, fertz and CO2 distribution; less wriggle room for mistakes and greater risk of algae.

Isn't light requirement plant dependent? Do you advise against providing too much light above the plants specific photo compensation point?

Tom Barr has measured Amano display tanks and found the PAR values are surprisingly low, between 35 to 50. Amano tanks grow only low light moses, anubias and ferns, so there is no need for high light which will likely do more harm than good.

On the other hand, Dutch style tanks grow high light stems with PAR values in 100 and above in order to thrive. I read that low light plants have hard time coexisting and suffer in Dutch style tanks.

 

[sciencefiction]

I believe you that majority show class planted tanks get only 6 to 8 hour photo period. But how do you enjoy your tanks in darkness most of the day or you want to show off to visitors. Do you turn the light on momentarily and off again after viewing or else risk algae pop up left and righ

I set the photo period in the evenings, when I am at home....Generally the earliest mine turn off is at around 9.30-10pm. I have a small tank with an old timer that doesn't hold the time well and it turns on at night, instead of during the day lol. It's planted with only anubias and I still don't have algae issues...it's more about turning on at set hours each day rather than what time that is...

 

[PARAGUAY]

I think you hit the nail on the head.. Have thriving plants is the secret.. And not hardheaded persist and try to grow what doesn't thrive.

And I seen James Findley were he takes us back to his shop setups were a plant has been changed ,often similar of look,because for one reason or another the original plant doesn’t do well, he don’t dwell on it he try’s another plant My photo periods are set for viewing times

 

[foxfish]

I have a vivarium that houses many of the same plants as I keep my planted aquarium.
Inside my viv, the plants that you call low light plants like Anubias and moss, seem to thrive on double the amount of watts and twice the photo period.
You can very often see the quote... low light plants.. but as has been mentioned on this forum perhaps it should read ..low C02 plants.. ?

 

[zozo]

There excists something as Photodamage in plants.. The thing for us is, we are growing mainly partialy terrestrial plants submersed. Which is a completely different ballgame of which we probably do not know what from the terrestrial studies still hold true. E.g. in terrestrial invironment and certain plant sp. oftenly heat radiaton is an associated factor with photodamage that doesn't apply to the way we grow the plant. Or as @ceg4048 already explained in many threads that many people mistake leggy growth in aquatic growing plants with etioliaton that could be described as low light photodamage in terrestrial plants. But in aquatic invironment it seems to be a CO² difficiency instead and still the majority blames light intensity when they experience leggy growth.

Funny play of words.. For a great deal, maybe the biggest part it's a shot in the dark how all these conclusions from studies on terrestrial growing plant/crops relate to growing ornamental plants aquatic. Since this is mainly studied and experienced in a hobby invironment, where each induvidual rather develops an opinion instead of an factual conclusion.

 

[Tim Harrison]

I believe you that majority show class planted tanks get only 6 to 8 hour photo period. But how do you enjoy your tanks in darkness most of the day or you want to show off to visitors. Do you turn the light on momentarily and off again after viewing or else risk algae pop up left and right.

I use a programmable LED. The light is on for around 14hrs a day, but outside the 6hr photoperiod it's only on very low light, high enough to enjoy the aquascape but low enough not to induce photosynthesis.

Isn't light requirement plant dependent? Do you advise against providing too much light above the plants specific photo compensation point?

Tom Barr has measured Amano display tanks and found the PAR values are surprisingly low, between 35 to 50. Amano tanks grow only low light moses, anubias and ferns, so there is no need for high light which will likely do more harm than good.

On the other hand, Dutch style tanks grow high light stems with PAR values in 100 and above in order to thrive. I read that low light plants have hard time coexisting and suffer in Dutch style tanks.

You have answered your own questions, but to clarify - Aquascaping is just like terrestrial gardening, in the respect that...If you want an easy life, and for your plants to thrive, you will grow them in favourable conditions;
You wouldn't, for instance, try to grow a woodland plant in full sun, and vice-versa, a light loving meadow plant in a woodland. Common sense dictates that you will have your work cut out for you, and in the end you ain't going to be very successful anyway...

However, in our aquariums light is just one component of several that keep plants thriving and algae at bay. Chief amongst the others are CO2 flow and distribution, and fertz regime. Get these right and your plants will thrive and algae will not. Innovations like EI mean we can effectively rule fertz out of the equation and concentrate on the most difficult to pin down - CO2. And as has been mentioned before, ad nauseam, most problems arise from poor CO2 implementation...and further, the higher the light intensity the higher the demand for CO2, and the harder it is to implement effectively.

But that isn't the whole story either. Sure, the key to a thriving planted tank includes all the above, but there is one other factor which is fundamental to success...and that is a healthy and large plant biomass in itself. It creates a negative feedback loop and a biologically stable and self-sustaining system, requiring minimal intervention...which crucially is very resistant to algae. There are several synergistic factors in play by the time a tank matures and reaches biological stability, not least amongst them are probably mutual shading, allelopathy, high O2 conc, low organic content...etc.

And not only but also, as a result it is perfectly possible to grow sciophytes and heliophytes in the same tank, it perhaps just requires a little thought to positioning. Further, on that note plants like Anubias, and ferns are shade tolerant not necessarily "low light plants", there is a not so subtle difference. Take Bolbitis for instance it will grow quite happily in low light but give it relatively high light and CO2 and it will grow very quickly, in fact it becomes a complete thug. Even Anubias and Java fern will put on a growth spurt in higher light, as will many mosses.

 

[Zeus.]

@tim, during your extended low intensity photoperiod I take it you have the CO2 off, plus how long of an extended low intensity period do you have just out of curiosity

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[Tim Harrison]

The light comes on at low-intensity 3% at 9am.
Gas comes on at 11am
Photoperiod starts 2pm
Gas goes off at 6pm
Photoperiod finishes at 8pm
Light stays on at low-intensity 3% until 11pm

 

[Zeus.]

The light comes on at low-intensity 3%

Thats the beauty of having lights that can go Very low, My Kessil 160 lowest intensity setting is 11% (1.10V on the 0-10V analog input range) which isnt as low as yours can go, spectrum can go as low as 0.0% and lights still come on, where as my LEDs on another tank with aid of a TC420 can go as low as yours

 

[Tim Harrison]

Yeah, I noticed that when I was choosing between the Radion FW and the Kessil. It's one of the reasons I didn't go for the Kessil. The Radion can go as low as 1% before zero.

 

[Zeus.]

The Kessil 360 have an even higher lower setting which put me off them - think its 30% plus they have a higher output as well. Think you made the right choice in the Radion. That it thats the light/profile of your 'Return of the Shallow' Journal

 

[tiger15]

The light comes on at low-intensity 3% at 9am.
Gas comes on at 11am
Photoperiod starts 2pm
Gas goes off at 6pm
Photoperiod finishes at 8pm
Light stays on at low-intensity 3% until 11pm

That sounds like an ingenious way to compromise viewing time with photo time. Just wonder why you provide 3 hour pre CO2 time and 2 hour pro CO2 time, as most people provide 1 hour pre and pro CO2 time.

I am home in the morning and evening so a split viewing and photo time will best fit my life style. I like to wake up check my tanks and feed my fish the first thing in the morning, and repeat when I get home in the evening.

Here is my current schedule. I will add dim light to the pre CO2 periods to increase the total viewing time to 11 hour.

6:30 am starts CO2 + dim light
7:30 am starts high light
11:00 am turns off CO2
12:00 noon turns off high light

5:30 pm starts CO2 + dim light
6:30 pm starts high light
10:00 pm turns off CO2
11:00 pm turns off high light

With two short CO2/photo periods, my CO2 peaks at 20 ppm near the end. I am wondering if it is the reason I still have minor bba on the edges of older anubias and buce leaves, but no other algae. I have 10x flow turn over rate, light is medium (50 PAR), and all my plants are low light. Should I dial up the CO2 bps to get more CO2, but then it can lead to more fluctuation in short CO2 periods, or increase the pre CO2 time similar to your set up.

 

[Zeus.]

Just wonder why you provide 3 hour pre CO2 time and 2 hour pro CO2 time, as most people provide 1 hour pre and pro CO2 time.

I have 50l tank that takes 3hrs to get a 1.0pH drop whilst my 500L tank I get the same drop in about 45mins. So very tank/injection method dependant. Our CO2 Guru 'Clive' does advise max [C02] at lights on but 4/5 hours later plants have had their fill so for last couple of hours turn it off, which is what I also do and dont get much of a pH increase and lights are dimming by then.

To get a decent full pH drop in an hour is very hard, I get it done with a duel CO2 injection method and a fancy PLC otherwise I dont think its possible to get a stable pH drop in least than a couple of hours IMO

 

[zozo]

What you could do is add an extra spotlight above the tank.. At least anywhere in the room in the tanks vicinity with the spot aimed towards the tank.
This spotlight on a seperate timer switch. For example a 3 watt cob led spot or any other intensity depending on the spots/tank distance.

This can give a nice sufficient ambient effect on the tank and room the tank is in. You can choose the best and most appealing position regarding intensity and how it cast schadow.

I'm already doing it like this..

From right to left, Right side is true east. Obviously east is sunrise, that's the first spot that comes on 8 am. It's a 12 watt 700 lumen COB it iluminates 1/3 from the tank and it gets filtered by all the floating vegitation on the surface, it casts a nice shadow towards the left.. Funny is all boraras gather each morning under the floating vegitation for a morning play time. They are attracted to first light. That;s a lovely playfull view.. 5 spots every 15 minutes later the next spot commes on, so 9.15 all is switched on. From 8.45 pm the first right spot switches off and every 15 minutes later the next spot switches off 10 pm the last spot. Respectively i have 12,7,5 and 3 watt spot in use. This way i can also play with switching intensity position without the need of reprogramming the controler. It's controlled with the TC420 but i use the JUMP setting not the fade. Each spot comes on at a full 100%. I noticed not all MR16 COB led spot driver like to be PWM faded than it starts to beep. But the spot seperately are low enough so switching 1 on 100% is no shock effect.

The effect is sunrise from the east to west and back down setting from east to west. Also the shadow casting in the tank changes accordingly during this cycle very naturaly. In the morning the shadow in the tank are casted at the left side and in the evening to the right side and mid day straigt down, like a sun clock..

Anyway i realy love it and seeing the 22 schooling boraras following the light play is just an awsome spectacle to look at.. Tho i'm to only one noticing this minor detail.

But if you have a fixed light source adding 1 extra spot light for the ambient evening light. clamped to the tank or screwed to the wall what ever can give you a lot of fun.. Make it 2 spots and you can have a sun up and sun down/moonlight effect as well.

I'm actualy planning a change for this setup.. I'm thinking of fixing a goose neck on the far right and far left spot, to be able to play more with light angle.

 

[sparkyweasel]

That's what we did in the past, without modern controllers, a dim light coming on before the main light and going off after.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Just wonder why you provide 3 hour pre CO2 time and 2 hour pro CO2 time, as most people provide 1 hour pre and pro CO2 time.

Take a look at this thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-2-hours-before-lights-turns-on-why.51367/