Upright Crypt

[jameson_uk]

Last month my T5 lighting died and I replaced it with the Juwel LED. Just before this I had moved my spray bar from the short side of the tank to being across the back.

One change I have noticed is that my crypt (I think it is a wendtii) has become more upright. Where as leaves have previously been angled and slightly curled they are now much more upright.

I figure this is down to light rather than flow but is this more or less than before??

 

[ceg4048]

It's down to better CO2.

Cheers,

 

[tam]

I've no CO2 and my wendtii grows long upright stems in one tank (it got a bit shorter and lighter coloured after I swapped out bulbs for LED, but it could also be related to the ferts in the original substrate running out over time), and the same plant (as in a cutting) is about half the height, about 45 degrees in angle and much darker leaved in another. They do grow differently in different environments, but I wouldn't like to pick out if it's the change in lights or flow that made the difference - it could even be a combo.

 

[alto]

Acc Tropica, C wendtii green leaves "lay down" with more light

 

[sciencefiction]

Its hard to tell without seeing. As alto points out, it could be due to lesser light but also due to the extra flow delivering more nutrients. When my plants have suffered a deficiency, and I dose, they perk up straight away, looking more upright and lively. I know the look on my plants but its hard to tell if thats the case in your situation.

 

[jameson_uk]

Will get a picture tonight but a lot of the leaves have gone basically vertical and straight where as they were previously at say 45°/60° and kind of curved.

Still looks healthy, just different.
Not sure if it is fert related as normally stick a couple of root tabs near this

 

[ceg4048]

I've no CO2 and my wendtii grows long upright stems in one tank (it got a bit shorter and lighter coloured after I swapped out bulbs for LED, but it could also be related to the ferts in the original substrate running out over time), and the same plant (as in a cutting) is about half the height, about 45 degrees in angle and much darker leaved in another. They do grow differently in different environments, but I wouldn't like to pick out if it's the change in lights or flow that made the difference - it could even be a combo.

Your statement should read "...I've no enriched CO2..."
The fact that you are not injecting CO2 cannot be equated to having "no" CO2. If there were "no" CO2 the plant would perish.
Folks seem to have difficulty with this concept and the result is usually misdiagnosis.

When you are not enriching CO2 the plants make a physiological change so that they become very efficient at using CO2.

When you enrich the tank with CO2 the plants become less efficient at using CO2 and are therefore more vulnerable to minor anomalies in CO2. That is why there are so many CO2 related faults in CO2 enriched tanks - which seems so counter-intuitive.

There are many cases where the plant will fail in a non-CO2 enriched tank as well. Each tank has a different set of variables as you point out, but this particular fault, as are most faults is CO2 related. In the OP's case, it is more likely that the improved flow delivers better CO2 to the plant.

It may be possible to isolate the cause by moving the spraybar to it's original location and observing if the leaves revert - although the lighting has been replaced so it might not be possible to return to the original condition.

Cheers,

 

[tam]

Your statement should read "...I've no enriched CO2..."

I'm pretty confident that the majority of people would, just have you have successfully done, interpret my statement to mean I am not deliberately adding additional CO2. And therefore understand my description is of my experience of how the crypt looked with no added CO2 as a base line (I don't know if the OP adds CO2 to that tank or not) and then how it changed when a change of flow wasn't also a factor.

 

[sciencefiction]

@tam Ha, ha, yes, that's how I perceive it when one says they've got no CO2...I certainly may have expressed myself the same way...Sometimes I make an effort to include "injection" in the sentence I sort of assume people get what I am trying to say

It is very difficult to say this or that caused the crypt to lay low or go upright. We all have our opinions and experiences but in the end of the day it actually boils down to that specific species of plant. They all act differently....I know my plants as I've been keeping the same species for years so you kind of start noticing things you never did before..

My crypts are just one kind, beckettii petchii pink. In low light the leaves actually stay close to the substrate in a star shape. The leaves are very dark green when not getting sufficient light. In higher light it grows taller, leaves more upright, and the leaves become a mix of pink/red colours, very beautiful. So it is actually the exact opposite of what you'd expect in low vs high light conditions. It is less compact with more light, possibly due to asking for more CO2 but the effect is actually more pleasing to the eye so no harm done.... And of course, it barely grows when in low light....I've actually had it for up to a year not growing in low light....and when getting good light, exploding with runners all over the tank in a matter of weeks...When deficient, its leaves sort of "droop". Same effect can be observed on my hydrophila although the visual aspect is quite more noticeable as it also gets an entire other range of visual deficiencies unlike crypts which are less prone to showing the deficiencies visually....

 

[ceg4048]

Your statement should read "...I've no enriched CO2..."

I'm pretty confident that the majority of people would, just have you have successfully done, interpret my statement to mean I am not deliberately adding additional CO2. And therefore understand my description is of my experience of how the crypt looked with no added CO2 as a base line (I don't know if the OP adds CO2 to that tank or not) and then how it changed when a change of flow wasn't also a factor.

Regardless of what the majority or minority interprets, it's important to reiterate that the effects of CO2 deficiency and can be present in non-enriched CO2 tanks as easily as they are in CO2 enriched tanks.

So your dismissal of the possibility of a CO2 effects is therefore not logical. In fact, your statement "...I've no CO2 and my wendtii grows long upright stems..." illustrates my point. In your non-CO2 enriched tank, the crypts grows upright and is in good health specifically because the CO2 uptake is good in that tank.
So the effects of CO2 cannot be denied just because it is not being added to the tank.

My crypts are just one kind, beckettii petchii pink. In low light the leaves actually stay close to the substrate in a star shape. The leaves are very dark green when not getting sufficient light. In higher light it grows taller, leaves more upright, and the leaves become a mix of pink/red colours, very beautiful.

OK, but in your comparison of the low light condition versus the high light condition is the CO2 and other factors held constant or is this an observation in different tanks configurations?

As you mention, different species have various behaviors under the same conditions and it's very difficult to untangle cause and effect so it's sometimes a stretch to compare the behavior of one versus another. Having said that however, flow/distribution/CO2 do have a very consistent effect on aquatic plants across the board. Aquatic plants do not typically grow low or upright based on light, instead, it's typically a function of gas exchange - and this behavior can easily be misinterpreted as being a response to light.

The problem for us is that we really do not have any sort of control, so it's very difficult to keep all other factors constant and only vary one factor in order to observe the effects of that one particular factor.

Cheers,

 

[sciencefiction]

OK, but in your comparison of the low light condition versus the high light condition is the CO2 and other factors held constant or is this an observation in different tanks configurations?

My explanation is a bit long but here it goes anyway.

Although I have observed the effect in different tanks it also happened in the exact same tank when I first bought the crypt and that's how I first found out that it can look a lot better with some more light. I have a small old juwel tank which some years ago I stocked with 5 shrimp and one crypt from the same shop, plus a few other grassy plants. The tank ran for about a year and a half with the juwel light which kept failing and was replaced by the shop 3 times in the same period.Plants never really took off. Tank was always a low tech.

I got sick of that and in the end I replaced the light unit with an LED that was more powerful. After 1.5 years struggling it actually took the plant weeks to explode after it got itself some more light. Runners started appearing everywhere, and it has been like that ever since, pretty strong grower with a mixture of pink and green leaves with pink stalks, rather than the very dark laying low leaves. It has tried to grow behind my internal filter while I had it and those plants always remained small and dark green as opposed to their pink neighbors. .The tank is also very shallow 30cm tall only and the light is right over on the edge.

I've moved many crypts to other tanks over the years and in low light it just remains an extremely slow grower with dark leaves, rather preferring to stick close to the substrate...In one of my tanks it never grew for a year...when in a very dark shaded corner....and of course, leaves were touching the substrate in a star shape...

Currently the tank is a hillstream loach tank so I have that same light at 12hrs to grow green algae As a result the crypt leaves take a hit of some algae but I actually can remove leaves all day long and never notice reduction of plant mass. It grows like a weed...It has done better with the same light over a 6-8 hour period.

 

[ceg4048]

While there is little doubt that light is an accelerator, as you mention, it can cause a lot of problems with algae.
When plants are in low light they will divert much of their resources to the light gathering mechanisms.
Primarily, this means the an increase of chlorophyll and the chlorophyll building/maintenance infrastructure.
This reduces their stores of energy and so there is very little left for growth. The increase in chlorophyll can result in a darker green.

Adding more light increases the growth rate by energizing the chlorophyll which can then produce sugar at a higher rate, allowing for more growth.
This is hardly surprising, however. Sticking close to the substrate is different behavioral issue. There were probably more than a single issue going on at each point in time. Very difficult to draw a unified conclusions based on different condition. It's not a safe enough assumption that because the tank was the same tank, that the conditions were the same at all times. Conditions can vary even in the same tank at the same time.

Which is not to say that light has no impact on the path or shape of the growth, only that it may play second fiddle to other factors.
Check this out: Here was my tank with C. wendetii brown and green. This tank had at least 70 different species and I had to just stuff plants in where I could. There was no room and the plants competed for space, for flow, for light and for CO2.
As you can see, the wendetii brown muscled everything out and had lots of light, flow and CO2, yet it grows more horizontally. It just sprawls and that's just how it grows. Just to the right of the brown you can see a small green being assailed by it's neighbors. It wants to grow upright but is under duress.
It has sent runners far to the left and plantlets are popping up to the right, in the extreme corner as well as to the left of the wood.

Here is that wendetii green on the right side 5 or 6 months earlier. The lighting is low to medium due to shading of the ferns but flow and CO2 is excellent.
I've zoomed in to show that wendetii green wants to grow upright and does so even when the light is not high.

And of course, when offered the same platform of strong light, flow and CO2 to compete on even ground with the brown, free of encumbrances, the plantlet on the left of the wood grows vertically.

This is just an example of how the shape of the plant can be attributed to many combination of effects. Although the light varied, what is for certain is that flow and CO2 were as much as possible, held consistently excellent.

The wendetii brown as far as I can tell prefers to grow in a sprawling horizontal manner when the conditions are high light/flow/CO2.
I did not grow it under any combination of low light/low flow/low CO2 so I cannot conclude that it grows this way under all conditions.

Cheers,

 

[alto]

In your non-CO2 enriched tank, the crypts grows upright and is in good health specifically because the CO2 uptake is good in that tank.

How is this also not an assumption?


Unfortunately I've no photos, but I've grown Tropica's C. wendtii 'Green' in various tanks under various conditions of light, CO2 & flow over the years, & observed it be consistent with Tropica's claim

When grown in an open space the leaves will virtually lie on the bottom.

This growth behaviour is very much in contrast to Cryptocorynes such as Tropica's C. x willisii (& other Tropica C. species no longer listed)

 

[sciencefiction]

I don't have a picture of before. I did have many but lost them with photobucket.

However, I found a picture of exactly how mine looked in low light.

And below is mine now. It grows to the full 14-15cm height its supposed to unlike before.....It actually didn't have to compete with anything. It overtook the tank years ago and its pretty much a crypt tank....

 

[tam]

"So your dismissal of the possibility of a CO2 effects is therefore not logical."

Seriously? Do you have an issue with me or something? Because picking apart what I say, making assumptions and then lecturing me is really unnecessary. When I say 'I have no CO2 and my crypt grows upright' that is literally what I mean - I have a tank with no added CO2 and my crypt grows upright. It doesn't mean that I believe my tank is magical and doesn't get CO2 from the air, or that I think CO2 has no effect on my plants, or that I believe CO2 couldn't have an effect on Jameson's tank. I am not dismissing your precious CO2. My statement literally just described the setup of my tank and the appearance of a crypt in it. I'm not sure how I can make that clearer to you.

It's great that you want to share your knowledge, but it would be a lot nicer to hang out on the forum if you could manage to do it without belittling other people in the process.

 

[jameson_uk]

The crypt in question...

You can see the leaves on the left are kind of vertical where as the ones on the right are on more of an angle.

It has just made the plant a lot taller.

 

[ceg4048]

How is this also not an assumption?


Unfortunately I've no photos, but I've grown Tropica's C. wendtii 'Green' in various tanks under various conditions of light, CO2 & flow over the years, & observed it be consistent with Tropica's claim

It's entirely possible that the assumption is that the specimens in my tank were the Tropica version and not some other variety with a different growth pattern.
There are so many varieties and it's easy to misrepresent a brand's version. Also, species are always being misidentified, to be renamed later. Really, I have no recollection whether my specimens were Tropica.

I don't have a picture of before. I did have many but lost them with photobucket.

However, I found a picture of exactly how mine looked in low light.

Yeah, it's as I just mentioned regarding varieties. Now, the one in front looks a lot like versions of wendetii brown that I've had, not green. The crypt behind it looks more like the green, and that central leaf is straight as a pole. Do you recall if that was a new leaf and did it bend at an angle like the others later on?

You can see the leaves on the left are kind of vertical where as the ones on the right are on more of an angle.

Looks normal to me for the possible reasons argued earlier.

@tam no mate I have no issues whatsoever. My only issue is with the way words are written, because improper syntax can cause confusion an muddies an already complicated subject. Sometimes it takes more words than we might think necessary to make a point clear. I've had to struggle through too many muddy posts written poorly to try and understand the problem or the point. What you just wrote is much clearer than what you wrote before and so I do not now need to make assumptions, and neither does any one else, whether in the majority or minority. If writing to communicate and we mean something literally then we should be literal because we're communicating via literature.
If you were not dismissing the possibility of CO2 being a cause then say so man, so that I don't waste my time and your time.
In this hobby, folks are so programmed to believe in myth and fantasy that it takes a lot of words to change the way they think.
My hope is that you won't assume that I'm now lecturing or belittling you.

Cheers,

 

[roadmaster]

In my NON CO2 injected , low light energy tanks, I have seen Crypt species along with Echinodorus species spread out their leaves in what appeared to be an effort to gather more light to larger surface area especially when young /smaller.
As they hopefully grow taller ,more light energy is available to the surface of the leaves PAR increases, and if condition's are favorable,the leaves grow more upright for me.
Mostly noted this completely unscientific observation when growing sword plant's in pot's in Cichlid tanks where fishes might otherwise root up plant's.
The sword plants for example,being closer to the light source than planted in substrate,did not struggle so much for light needed.
CO2 was what it was as might be produced naturally.
The sword plants in pot's had plenty of nutrient's from soil capped with fine gravel in the pot's which led me to start with dirted tanks in general.
I think plant's have extreme/complicated survival mechanisim's they might be able to employ up to a point whiyh many ,many variables that dictate their growth habit's.
I think ANY CO2 one can create or provide is better than none,nutrient's are easy to lard on,too little light is seldom the only variable and too much,,is frustratingly easy to become addicted to.