Restructuring a Problem Tank

[Tom Raffield]

Hi all,

I have been running my Juwel Vision 240 for about 18 months now having switched up from a smaller tank when I moved house. I took the plunge and went for a heavily planted tank. I guess I expected things to be hard work but I really did not expect life to get as complicated and problematic as it is at the moment. I will try and summarise my experience so far and highlight some of the major changes I have made over the last year and a half:

- Created tank with half Eco-Complete and half gravel and added root tabs. Purchased 'easy' plants to grow. Dosed to EI levels for ferts and added liquid carbon daily. Stock lights with the Juwel tank. Pressurised CO2 added.
- 12 neons, 2 corys, 8 amano shrimp, 4 raspboras, 4 cherry barb, 2, rummy nose, 1 flying fox, 1 plec.
- Feed fish and shrimps every other day.
- Lights on for 5 hours a day, CO2 two hours before. 50% weekly water change.
- Maintenance of plants, circulation pump and filter as required. Added root tabs as necessary.
- Use drop checker with 4dkh solution.

At first thing seemed to be going ok apart from a few teething problems. Everything growing well and I worked hard to maintain things as they should be, following advice when given. Over time I began to find issues with the plants. This started with black flecks on the leaves and black edges. Leaves turning brown/orange. Dark green leaves rather than bright green. Limited growth. (see other threads from me on these forums). From feedback I made changes, spent a fair amount of cash and sought further advice. A general consensus was that CO2 must be the cause. Over time I have tried these solutions:

- Upgraded with a large Hydor Koralia circulation pump for water movement.
- Upgraded to an external Fluval FX4 and removed the internal Juwel filter.
- Upgraded to a bazooka atomiser which is placed directly under the filter intake to give CO2 time to dissolve through the filter.
- Reduced lighting period.
- Increased pressurised CO2 (resulted in some deaths due to excessive increase!), reduced levels again to safe levels but the plant issues remained even at elevated levels.

To cap it all off I have more recently noticed what look like white planaria in the tank. Whilst this was on just one evening and I have not seen them since, they must be there. All my amano shrimp also unexpectedly died in fairly quick succession. A number turned bright blue or red and then were found dead the next day. Some were found dead the normal colour. I read somewhere that this could be planaria or perhaps toxicity? Does Eco-Complete become toxic through dosing? And all the while my plants still don’t look that good.

Maybe the amano deaths was the last straw but I am simply at my wits end with my tank now, I am happy to maintain the tank as I should but it is no longer enjoyable - I am looking to potentially take drastic action!

I have a long 8 week break from work coming up and could undertake a project! Is it possible to breakdown a tank and attempt to convert from what is considered high tech (the tank now?) to low tech. Could I remove the Eco Complete, reduce the plant load and perhaps even stop adding CO2? Some plants can surely survive without loads of ferts, CO2 and nutrient rich substrates?

Would the process of removing substrate, uprooting plants and simplifying the whole tank be possible without moving the fish out? Is a 'low tech' tank any easier to look after? Ideally I just want to go back to basics and start to enjoy my tank again. My old Juwel Rio 125 with stock filter/lights had next to no CO2 addition and very limited nutrient supplementation but I maintained a similar schedule. It just seemed easier and I had no major issues that I can remember.

Any suggestions as to how I can safely undertake this project or at least try and claw back the passion I used to have for this hobby would be greatly appreciated. Please help me!

* The pictures attached show the tank as it is today (one is from July 2017, then December 2017). Older pictures can be seen on previous threads.

 

[Edvet]

Could you use an electronic pH device (pen or meter) to do a pH profile ( take a measurment every 30 mins from before CO2 start till lights out)
It is always possible to go low tech/no CO2, just reduce the light massively and add floaters.
Which lights are the stock lights?
What are your "EI levels?

 

[PARAGUAY]

If it was me stick with what you have got for now .How about increasing water changes to 50% say three times a week,check feeding regime for the fish ,try and not be too drastic with the CO2 in terms of ramping right up and right down could that have effected?Gradually increase while bear in mind livestock.If you have 8 weeks coming up you a bit of time to observe

 

[Zeus.]

I think the issue is more poor CO2 distribution due to poor flow. The FX4 outlet is pants at moving a body of water, fine for fish only tanks, but for planted tanks we need a greater body of movements better achieved with spraybars, your three jets of water from the FX4 outlet and powerheads could yeild a better turnover for there outputs. A spraybar. placed at the back of the tank will get the CO2 to the lower plants better. Plants look pretty healthy which surgested the issue is purely CO2 related. As Edvet surgested a pH profile will highlight any CO2 fluctuations during the photoperiod. Max pH drop for lights on then stable for 4-5hours or CO2 off.
A 3-5 day blackout could also be used to clear the hair algea on the edges of the leaves.
Changing the tank substrate etc will do nothing if the CO2 issues are not resolved first by improving the flow and CO2 distribution to the whole tank first.
Reducing the light will help OFC but better CO2 implementation is the key long term IMO only increasing the light slowly once plants are healthy.

 

[HiNtZ]

I've put amanos through some pretty horrid environments and never lost a single one. Something must be properly out of whack because they are really hardy shrimp.

The colours you mention depend on environment. If there's wood in the tank they will be more red/brown. No wood and they will be more blue.

 

[Tom Raffield]

Thanks for the responses.

With regard to the pH, I think that would be a good idea. I would have to buy something more reliable than the simple dip sticks. I just used one of those on the tank and according to those my pH is in the 6.8 region with a KH in the region of 15-20d which on the charts looks horrendous. Surely that can't be right!

Lights: 2 T5 Tubes running iQuatics (Juwel Style) Aqua Blue and Tropical. I have reflectors but removed them.

EI: I am using the hand mixed salts from Aquarium Plant Food and add 25ml macro, 25ml micro on alternate days with Saturday (water change day) as with nothing added. I believe, if using the correct amounts on the bottle I should be dosing about 40ml.

Are sprays bars easy to fit? Can they fit under the Juwel hood? I have never come across them before other than what I have just googled.

Amanos: I have just discovered three shrimp (I thought they were all dead!). Two look normal coloration but one is super red! Like rust coloured. I have tried to attach a photo but the red colour is much darker than it appears. I figured he was on deaths door a few days ago! I do have wood in the tank but have never seen any of the other shrimp change colour like this.

 

[ian_m]

This is my spray bar for my Juwel 180. You will need something like this but bigger as your tank is bigger than mine.

 

[Andrew Butler]

Are sprays bars easy to fit? Can they fit under the Juwel hood? I have never come across them before other than what I have just googled.

Hi Tom,
I know how frustrating things can get and sometimes taking that step back and looking at things is the best thing you can do BUT giving up is maybe the worst thing you can in my opinion.
Asking other people for help is a good move then listening to what they say and taking away from that what makes sense to you.
I think the best piece of advice ever given to me was to try a spraybar; you can ditch your Koralia too then.
I've made my own as the ones out there were just pants in my opinion and if you have a bit of DIY know how they are easy enough to make, any questions feel free to ask.

 

[Tom Raffield]

I've had a look for a spray bar that will attach to a Fluval FX4. Has anyone used one before? The Fluval spray bar that is available doesn't seem to mention the newer models of filter. Will this matter?

If one does not exist then some tips on how to construct one would be much appreciated. Word of warning... Not very DIY literate!

Whilst doing my water change yesterday I took some close ups of some the plants in the middle (which are not doing so well). Does this look like a CO2 circulation problem and hence the need for a spray bar?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Does this look like a CO2 circulation problem and hence the need for a spray bar?

If the new leaves on the Hygrophila are as pale as they look in the photo? That is chlorosis and likely to be a problem with iron (Fe) uptake (because it effects the new leaves it is a non plant mobile nutrient deficiency, and iron is the most likely one to be deficient).

The problem is that nearly all iron compounds are insoluble, and plants can only take up nutrients as ions.

Have a look at the <"Plant deficiency thread"> and <"Duckweed Index says...">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Barbara Turner]

Tanks can be pretty frustrating sometimes.
The light acts a bit like an accelerator pedal, the more light you have the faster plants could grow but the more everything becomes critical, if the plant is growing faster it will need more co2 and more nutrients etc etc.
If you're not in a rush dropping to a single t5 might make life a lot easier, but you will most likely lose some plants that are light critical.

I'm a little bit relaxed, if a plant is growing well then great, if not, I'll remove any damaged leaves until I get sick of it pull it out. At which point I have space to try something else.
Fish and shrimps are obviously a lot more disheartening.

Trying to get an even flow around the tank can be a bit of a black art, I had two drop checkers a while ago and I was amazed how different readings you can get in the same tank.
Sadly no one solution will fit all tanks, some people swear by lily pipes others spray bars. Everyone has different things in their tank so the flow will be different.
Your tank is also quite narrow at 41cm and high at 55cm that will make life harder to get good flow to the bottom.

The plants give you a good sign what the flow is doing around them the aim is to get them all moving slowly.
ceg4048 posted a really good video showing flow around a tank (far better than what I get).
I ripped the internals out of my Eihiem filter and replaced them with a jebao 4000 pump, I still keep moving things around to try and get better flow to my eleocharis parvula carpet.

The problem is that nearly all iron compounds are insoluble, and plants can only take up nutrients as ions.

If you don't have an Iron test most local aquariums will do a full range of tests (avoid going when there busy as it takes a while)
You might find some other problems that the tests will show,
But take care with advice as my local aquarium is still selling terrestrial plants to put in your aquarium and i'm sure they will still tell me what i'm doing wrong and try and sell me something to make them grow.

Ps I find that if I overdose the liquid carbon it does a good job at killing of shrimps, but I also think that higher levels of liquid carbon help buffer poor Co2 distribution and reduce algae.
(I tried a dip on some algae ridden plants and it also turned them to mush)

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If you don't have an Iron test most local aquariums will do a full range of tests.....and i'm sure they will still tell me what i'm doing wrong and try and sell me something to make them grow.

You are right, you can't test for <"available iron easily">, even with analytical grade kit. Seachem sell an iron test kit, but even they admit it isn't <"straight-forward to use">, or particularly accurate.

Iron is the most common element on Earth, and the fourth more abundant in the Earth's crust, and plants only need it in small amounts, but you can still have iron availability issues.

The problem is the solubility question, you can have as much iron as you like in the tank, but usually that <"reservoir of iron is unavailable">. In oxygen rich conditions ferrous/(ferric) iron ions (Fe++(+)) are only available below pH7. If you have a well established substrate, with "chunky" plants (Echinodorus spp. etc.), you may get zones of in the fluctuating REDOX (in the rhizosphere) where iron ions become available.

There is a chart of the solubility of metallic compounds here <"Wikipedia: Solubility chart">, if you look at iron III (ferric) compounds, most are insoluble. It was the problems with keeping <"iron in solution"> in hydroponics that lead to the development of chelators for iron, originally citric acid and subsequently EDTA etc.

It sounds really strange but often using the plant as your "test kit" is actually a more sensitive, and more scientific, option than using a chemical reagent kit.

Iron is a really good example of this, if you have the combination of hard water and an aquatic plant with small, pale, new leaves then iron deficiency is very likely, whatever testing says.

Because iron isn't mobile within the plant you don't get an instant greening when you add it in an available form, it is only the new leaves that will be larger and greener. Nearly all the other elements where deficiency leads to chlorosis are mobile.

The "green plants" are all the plants we want to grow (mosses, ferns and higher plants), plus some we don't, and we call these ones "green algae".

Because the green algae don't have the secondary thickening, vascular tissue etc. they can show a quick response to nutrients.

In nearly al situations plant growth is limited by the level of one of the essential nutrients (C, N, P, K, Mg, Fe, Ca, Mn, Mo, Cu, Bo, Zn, etc), (this is <"Liebig's law of the minimum">).

Some nutrients are mobile within the (higher) plant, and deficiencies effect older leaves. Potassium (K) would be an example, potassium deficiency causes yellow leaves, and adding K produces a rapid greening of all leaves as the plant can move it to any areas of deficiency.

Other nutrients aren't mobile within the plant, such as iron (Fe).

Iron deficiency cause yellowing of the new leaves of higher plants and adding iron won't green these leaves up (the plant can't move it to these leaves), so it is only new leaves that will show a greening growth response..... But for algae it is slightly different, they don't have any vascular tissue and can't move any nutrients about. Nutrients diffuse in through the cell walls to every cell.

When iron is the limiting nutrient an addition of Fe++(+) ions will cause a rapid response from the algae. It will also produce the same response from the green plants, but that response will take much longer to show, because it will only effect new leaves.

cheers Darrel

 

[Matt Havens]

Hi Tom,


I cannot really help an awful lot with regards to what appears to be deficiency in some of your plants (I have this problem myself) but with the livestock issue I hope I can.

I have skim read through the replies here and forgive me if I missed it but you mentioned about fert tabs.
I know from my own errors if these get disturbed or are not buried deep enough they can cause problems.

I only mention this because of what you said about your Amono's, as others have pointed out they are pretty hardy and can withstand a lot of abuse and neglect.
I could not see from the background story anything else that would cause the shrimp to do such a thing in such a short time frame and this would have sent my alarm bells ringing.
If it was me I would be looking at how deep my root tabs are, all other factors I would say do not relate to your shrimp deaths and since you do not yet know the cause of this I would focus on finding that out first.

How many shrimp did you lose in one go?

If you can find the answer to the cause of this it may also lend a hand in sorting your plants out.

Cheers,

Matt

 

[Tom Raffield]

Thanks for the responses again everyone.

Root Tabs - I do use these and I generally don't push them in too far. Maybe an inch or so. Perhaps they dislodged or were moved when doing my usual maintenance. This could be a factor. I started noticing the losses on the same day that I saw the white planaria - I have not seen these since either. It felt like I had lost 'all' my Amanos as I found a number of bodies over a number of days. However since then I have seen a few survivors. Possibly 5 or so which is much better than I first thought. The 'red' shrimp was still wandering around slowly but I am fairly sure he is on his way out. The rest look fairly healthy in my opinion.

Iron - I know I am not dosing EI to the suggested amounts on the bottles. I always fear overdoing it which is silly considering I do a 50% weekly water change. Should I slowly increase ferts (especially micro) in an attempt to increase iron levels? Perhaps some of my other symptoms are deficiencies? I could resort to the 10ml per 50litres as instructed on the bottles, or even more? What do you think? I am also dosing 10-15ml of liquid carbon each day too.

Spray Bar - CO2 has been highlighted as my main problem for a long time now but everything I have to resolve this has failed. Increasing CO2, adding a larger Koralia etc. A spray bar sounds like the next best thing to try. However I can not find one suitable for a Fluval FX4. I even wrote to Fluval and asked what they would recommend and they told me not to fit a spray bar as it would cause a build up of pressure which could cause the filter to leak and damage the motor! Has anyone ever had this issue with a spray bar? And if I do pursue the idea. How am I going to fit one to an FX4 with the large piping? Any ideas or better still, DIY instructions for a novice would greatly appreciated.

 

[Zeus.]

Did a custom spraybar for my FX6

Used 25mm PVC-U Aquariumplumbing.co.uk

 

[Tom Raffield]

Zeus - you have had not issues with it?
How easy was it going about constructing one and attaching it to the Fluval fittings? My Juwel Vision is fairly wide - would making one as wide actually work? Any advice on how to do this would be great as the spray bar does seem the best option for circulation as I have tried everything else already! I am a total DIY novice as well.

Has anyone had any thoughts on me increasing my ferts levels (particularly micro for iron)?

 

[Zeus.]

Has anyone had any thoughts on me increasing my ferts levels (particularly micro for iron)?

I would up both macros and micros to EI STD to start with then wait 4-6weeks before any further change esp if doing 50% WC

Zeus - you have had not issues with it?

Not really except mine a pain to clean.

But yours should be easy, I wouldn't even use any solvent weld on yours as didn't on mine where pipe was under water as easier to clean adjust etc.
1m 25mm pipe
Or 1m clear 25mm pipe
25mm to 3/4 Inch THREADED CONNECTOR
25mm PVC-U PLAIN END CAP
3/4 INCH HOSE ADAPTOR TO 25mm HOSE
3-4 25mm clips with suction cup. Easy on eBay etc
Done, don't even need jubilee clip as hose connects underwater, plus 1m length of pipe should be great fit for your tank. Hose will need a good soak in boiling water to get 90 degree bend on it that's all IMO, don't even need PTFE tape as minor leak underwater is irrelavent
Only issue is the P&P charge so I would get 2-3 spare grey 25mm meter lengths in case you mess up with too many/big holes. Plus big advantage of not using the solvent is you can change the pipe and use the same fittings

 

[Tom Raffield]

Wow - thanks Zeus! Very kind of you to link the products in.

Assuming that the dimensions of those will fit into the FX4 pipework. When the inlet from the filter enters the tank (on the far left in the pictures, opposite end to the out to the filter pipe) will I be bending the Fluval ribbed hosing through 90 degrees and then attaching the items you mention. That piping is super strong and not the easiest thing to bend. Will need a long old soak! I also am not sure I have the slack in piping to accomplish the turn. Is there an alternative in case I can't make the bend?

1m of pipe should fit nicely along the back wall of the tank. Should I aim for holes about 1 inch apart and how large did you drill yours? I have read in places that the line of holes should also not be straight but slightly wavy along the tube - is this a good idea too?

Sorry for all the questions, and the baby steps approach I need, but I really am a total novice when it comes to this. Some might say a total novice to tank-keeping based on my experience so far!!

 

[Zeus.]

That piping is super strong and not the easiest thing to bend. Wil

That's also a minor concern of mine too.
Could just get
25mm SHORT RADIUS 90 DEGREE PVC-U BEND spraybar on one end (no solvent) and the adaptors on other with solvent and PTFE on thread and hose clip.
All depends on how it works with your hood and bracing!

I do use the fluvial tubing myself and will try and see how well it bends with boiling hot water as I have a few off cuts. On holiday ATM but back home at weekend so will see how easy it is to bend. Will do a hole and size check too.

Sorry for all the questions, and the baby steps approach I need, but I really am a total novice

No problem, keep asking it wasn't that long ago I was asking all the questions It's good to share and help each other.

 

[Zeus.]

That piping is super strong and not the easiest thing to bend. Wil

That's also a minor concern of mine too.
Could just get
25mm SHORT RADIUS 90 DEGREE PVC-U BEND spraybar on one end (no solvent) and the adaptors on other with solvent and PTFE on thread and hose clip.
All depends on how it works with your hood and bracing!

I do use the fluvial tubing myself and will try and see how well it bends with boiling hot water as I have a few off cuts. On holiday ATM but back home at weekend so will see how easy it is to bend. Will do a hole and size check too.

Sorry for all the questions, and the baby steps approach I need, but I really am a total novice

No problem, keep asking it wasn't that long ago I was asking all the questions It's good to share and help each other.