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Nano fish recommendation
- Thread starter tiger15
- Start date
A few, but I am not going to recommend them.
zozo
Member
The only commercial fish capable of surviving the harshest conditions is the carp/goldfish.. Hence they are kept i bowls for centuries in every continent on the planet.
These fish even survive outside the water for many ours if not dried out. Even if they dry out it takes a long aginzing time for them to finaly die. I once found a completely dried out goldfish on the floor. I thought it was dead, took it of the ground and it sstarted moving. Did put it back in the water and remarkably it wasn't even damaged. It hid away for 30 minutes to recuparate and went on whit its daily life like nothing happend. These animals probaly have a system they can highly regulate or even nearly shut it down to survive.
Still even if a fish can take it or has capabilities to survive it, it doesn't mean it feels happy to undergo such conditions it probably feels like a torture to them. But what else can they do than hang on to life?
Any fish requires a fully biologicaly matured properly sized and filtered aqaurium.. Personaly i'm a extremist i measure the shortest distance of the tank usual the width.. And make sure any fish i put in can at least swin his own body lengt 10 x in this distance.. Still not ideal and anything bigger is imho cruelty..
So!? Na nono fish..
These fish even survive outside the water for many ours if not dried out. Even if they dry out it takes a long aginzing time for them to finaly die. I once found a completely dried out goldfish on the floor. I thought it was dead, took it of the ground and it sstarted moving. Did put it back in the water and remarkably it wasn't even damaged. It hid away for 30 minutes to recuparate and went on whit its daily life like nothing happend. These animals probaly have a system they can highly regulate or even nearly shut it down to survive.
Still even if a fish can take it or has capabilities to survive it, it doesn't mean it feels happy to undergo such conditions it probably feels like a torture to them. But what else can they do than hang on to life?
Any fish requires a fully biologicaly matured properly sized and filtered aqaurium.. Personaly i'm a extremist i measure the shortest distance of the tank usual the width.. And make sure any fish i put in can at least swin his own body lengt 10 x in this distance.. Still not ideal and anything bigger is imho cruelty..
So!? Na nono fish..
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Goldfish can take harsh environment and extreme temp,but not a nano fish that can fit in a small bowl.
I read an old TFH artical that goldfish can be air shipped waterless, just moist cubicles with dry ice sedation to calm the fish, not sure if it is still going on. I have witnessed carps, goldfish ancestor, sold in Thailand farmer market in waterless containers, some hanging in the air by the dorsal fin wiggling to advertise sale.
I read an old TFH artical that goldfish can be air shipped waterless, just moist cubicles with dry ice sedation to calm the fish, not sure if it is still going on. I have witnessed carps, goldfish ancestor, sold in Thailand farmer market in waterless containers, some hanging in the air by the dorsal fin wiggling to advertise sale.
kadoxu
Member
+1 to no fish. I had a hard enough time finding fish suitable for a heated 5 gal tank...
They probably can, but it still doesn't make it right...
Bird watchers will consider keeping any cage bird immoral, as birds are supposed to roam free. Likewise, reef divers will consider keeping coral fish in a glass cage immoral. Keeping dwarf shrimp in a gallon bowl is OK, but not nano fish of the same size. Keeping a 1 inch nano fish in a gal bowl has proportionally more water volume per unit mass than keeping a 2 inch betta in a quart jar. Mass is approximately proportional to the third power of the length and the math shows that betta in a quart jar has 32 times less water per unit mass than a 1 inch fish in a gal bowl.
zozo
Member
The thing is, the size of the fish in relation to the water volume isn't the issue.. it's more what invironmental infleunces that work on the relative small water volume.. As you already found out, temperature is rather difficult to regulate in small water volumes. Oxygen saturation is highly temperatur related, warm water contains far less, than you need a rather large water surface erea and surface agitation to get at least a bit of oxygen into the water.. Now that is what a round bowl in relation to it's volume does not have.. It has much more volume that open water surface.. Thus this will rsult in a rather soon oxygen depletion and a fsih could suffocate or feeling stuffy for the majority of the day and get sick in the long term.
Morrality doesn't help here..
Fish polute the water much more than a shrimp does. This polution adds ammonia to the water column.. Converting ammonia to Nitrite and Nitrite angain to Nitrate is done by bacteria.. Guess what these bacteria use to do this.. They use oxygen.. This process will result in oxygen depletion.. If your surface area doesn't make up for that you are back to square one, stuffy fish.
Worst case scenario less oxygen less bacteria more ammonia build up... Ammonia is toxic to fish..
Also no morrality in play here.
There are more arguments why you shouldn't keep fish in a bowl no matter the volume.. But i guess 2 valid ones are enough..
No pun intented, i'm not here as the morality knight nor am i judge Dreds assistant.. You decide...
But i agree, i know why the caged bird sings.. It sings of freedom..
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There are tiny guppy/endler types living in sewage ditches surviving extreme conditions - these would likely be the best candidate, they would feed on the algae microflora & baby shrimp
Again avoid any domestic, line bred fish as these are nothing like their wild cousins
Bettas survive in hot, small volumes of water due to their labyrinth organ BUT these wild Bettas are nothing like the fancy line bred domestics
The low 60s temp would be a challenge for Betta species though & fish would be unlikely to live out their natural lifespan
They would feed mostly on the cherry shrimp
Again avoid any domestic, line bred fish as these are nothing like their wild cousins
Bettas survive in hot, small volumes of water due to their labyrinth organ BUT these wild Bettas are nothing like the fancy line bred domestics
The low 60s temp would be a challenge for Betta species though & fish would be unlikely to live out their natural lifespan
They would feed mostly on the cherry shrimp
Note that OP states this is a planted bowl
- given the many posts on ukaps about plants doing the "job" of the filter media (re don't bother with anything in your filter that might slow the flow rate ... with the exception of inline CO2 reactors & inline heaters (which decrease flow rate much more than any reasonably clean media)) - how can it also be argued that a few small fish will create ammonia etc problems ... surely the plants will quickly grab up that ammonia (which is a much preferred N source over nitrate)
- given the many posts on ukaps about plants doing the "job" of the filter media (re don't bother with anything in your filter that might slow the flow rate ... with the exception of inline CO2 reactors & inline heaters (which decrease flow rate much more than any reasonably clean media
)) - how can it also be argued that a few small fish will create ammonia etc problems ... surely the plants will quickly grab up that ammonia (which is a much preferred N source over nitrate)
tam
Member
- Joined
- 5 May 2011
- Messages
- 1,466
Sorry, that's too small for any fish that would also cope with the temperature changes. To be honest it's really too small for fish altogether even if it was heated. The dilution, temperature stability and swimming space is just too limited. Best to keep that shrimp only - although you could look at snails if you wanted to add something else. I think it would be too cool for microcrabs.
Now if you want to go a bit bigger then you have a lot more options. If you want to stick small I would say 5gallon as a minimum, that will give you room for a heater if you want one and a choice of fish.
Tbf, I'd stick with shrimp, if even purely due to the open top.
I have no qualms about keeping small killifish in 5 litres or so, but this is in tight lidded tanks and often not for a long period.
I do know someone that has a very healthy Betta in a heated 5 litre cube, with regular water changes, this is doable and is aided with substances such as almond leaf extract to lower the pH and ammonia toxicity. You'll quite often see Thai breeders adopt this approach, but I don't care to get into the ethics of it, just putting the info out there!
I have no qualms about keeping small killifish in 5 litres or so, but this is in tight lidded tanks and often not for a long period.
I do know someone that has a very healthy Betta in a heated 5 litre cube, with regular water changes, this is doable and is aided with substances such as almond leaf extract to lower the pH and ammonia toxicity. You'll quite often see Thai breeders adopt this approach, but I don't care to get into the ethics of it, just putting the info out there!
I like the idea of wild guppy / endler that not only eat algae, but can tolerate temp extremes as they are subtropical fish. I also like the idea of killi but don't know what species eat algae?
I don't worry about fish jumping off open surface as my vigorous growing frogbit is blanketing the surface. I have to thin out the frogbit from time to time to reduce the thickness. I have ramhorn snails helping out a bit but not enough.
I don't worry about pollution with heavier stocking by adding a nano fish as Alto has correctly pointed out, heavy plant mass is an effective filter. My vigorous growing frogbit and hair grass have formed dense forests on the surface and bottom. I can hardly detect nitrate even though I regularly transfer nutrient rich water from my big fish tank to top the bowl.
I don't worry about lack of oxygen in warm water as quite the opposite, highest O2 saturation coincides with warmest temp when the sun hits the bowl and the plants pearl like crazy. There is no open surface for air exchange, but the floating forgbit is transpiring heavily as evident by pearling in their long roots when the sun hits. Night time may be a concern when the plants no longer generate but consume O2. But I believe the floating blanket prevents escape of O2 accumulated during the day and captures CO2 generated at night for use when the plants wake up. I don't know what the balance is in between when the plants expose to bright shade but no direct sun.
I like to maintain the bowl as a self sustaining microcosm. The sun provides external energy input, the dirt substrate and top off water provide the nutrients, and the plants, shrimp and micros complete the cycle. I post this thread in search of a nano fish to fill in the water column, ideally one that self sustains on plants and algae without feeding. I have no concern for a lonely fish in a tight space as fish are too primitive to have emotion.
I don't worry about fish jumping off open surface as my vigorous growing frogbit is blanketing the surface. I have to thin out the frogbit from time to time to reduce the thickness. I have ramhorn snails helping out a bit but not enough.
I don't worry about pollution with heavier stocking by adding a nano fish as Alto has correctly pointed out, heavy plant mass is an effective filter. My vigorous growing frogbit and hair grass have formed dense forests on the surface and bottom. I can hardly detect nitrate even though I regularly transfer nutrient rich water from my big fish tank to top the bowl.
I don't worry about lack of oxygen in warm water as quite the opposite, highest O2 saturation coincides with warmest temp when the sun hits the bowl and the plants pearl like crazy. There is no open surface for air exchange, but the floating forgbit is transpiring heavily as evident by pearling in their long roots when the sun hits. Night time may be a concern when the plants no longer generate but consume O2. But I believe the floating blanket prevents escape of O2 accumulated during the day and captures CO2 generated at night for use when the plants wake up. I don't know what the balance is in between when the plants expose to bright shade but no direct sun.
I like to maintain the bowl as a self sustaining microcosm. The sun provides external energy input, the dirt substrate and top off water provide the nutrients, and the plants, shrimp and micros complete the cycle. I post this thread in search of a nano fish to fill in the water column, ideally one that self sustains on plants and algae without feeding. I have no concern for a lonely fish in a tight space as fish are too primitive to have emotion.
MirandaB
Member
"I like to maintain the bowl as a self sustaining microcosm. The sun provides external energy input, the dirt substrate and top off water provide the nutrients, and the plants, shrimp and micros complete the cycle. I post this thread in search of a nano fish to fill in the water column, ideally one that self sustains on plants and algae without feeding. I have no concern for a lonely fish in a tight space as fish are too primitive to have emotion."
That statement just beggars belief
That statement just beggars belief
"I like to maintain the bowl as a self sustaining microcosm. The sun provides external energy input, the dirt substrate and top off water provide the nutrients, and the plants, shrimp and micros complete the cycle. I post this thread in search of a nano fish to fill in the water column, ideally one that self sustains on plants and algae without feeding. I have no concern for a lonely fish in a tight space as fish are too primitive to have emotion."
That statement just beggars belief
+1 op please find an alternative hobby
My planted shrimp bowl is largely self sustaining. I do not provide artificial lighting, heating, filtration or circulation. I do not feed the shrimp, dose the plants, or do water change. Direct sun light supports vigorous plant growth and micros that feed the invertebrates. I will add a nano fish on the top of the food chain to feed on the vegetation and shrimplets.
I understand that total self sustenance is a fantasy, not even the multi million dollar Biosphere experiment in US Arizona has succeeded. There is still substantial interventions such as replacing evaporated water with nutrient rich water from my high tech tank, the bowl is in a heated and AC room that moderates the temp extremes; and periodically I need to thin out excessive plant or invertebrate growth.
The bowl has only been set up for a few months so its long term sustenance is a unknown, and it may crash one day. Nevertheless, in comparison to my high tech tank which I have never stopped battling for algae or unhealthy plants, the bowl is doing much better right from start with vigorous plant growth and zero algae, not even green water as one expects with direct sunlight.
I understand that total self sustenance is a fantasy, not even the multi million dollar Biosphere experiment in US Arizona has succeeded. There is still substantial interventions such as replacing evaporated water with nutrient rich water from my high tech tank, the bowl is in a heated and AC room that moderates the temp extremes; and periodically I need to thin out excessive plant or invertebrate growth.
The bowl has only been set up for a few months so its long term sustenance is a unknown, and it may crash one day. Nevertheless, in comparison to my high tech tank which I have never stopped battling for algae or unhealthy plants, the bowl is doing much better right from start with vigorous plant growth and zero algae, not even green water as one expects with direct sunlight.
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zozo
Member
As is this also
For now you only make statements in the contexts my bowl this and that and "I like!" And "I want!".
Mater a fact is, it aint about you, not about what you want or like.. It's what it likes and wants, in this case the little fish you like to put in there. The best thing you need to want is live up to the responsibility to properly care for any animal that lives under your care.
But since you sincerely believe fish are nothing but primitive emotionless and notionless buggers that only breath, eat and poop. Than i truely do not understand why you come here and ask the question which of those stupid buggers is most suitable.. Regarding your opinion you already answered your own question. It would be any as long as it fits?
Good luck, living the dream of dreams..
But since you sincerely believe fish are nothing but primitive emotionless and notionless buggers that only breath, eat and poop. Than i truely do not understand why you come here and ask the question which of those stupid buggers is most suitable
I am new to planted tanks, but not new to fish keeping. Fish keeping has been my hobby for 40+ years, presently running 6 fish tanks and a bowl for a total of 400 gal. So I know what fish need in general, but not specific for thousands of species that I have never kept.
Scientists have found that all warm blooded mammals and birds have emotion, even lowly rats showed grief and empathy of their dead and dying mates, and pet parrots exhibit separation anxiety of their absent owner or mate. Fish have not known to show grief and empathy yet, and will be quick to cannibalize their dead and dying mates. That is not known to happen with warm blooded animal. Fish have instinct, but have not evolved with emotion yet.
I will not torture fish by giving them stressful environmental conditions, rather, I am asking for fish that will fit the constraints of small space and large temp fluctuation.
