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Nano fish recommendation

cannibalize their dead and dying mates. That is not known to happen with warm blooded animal

Last thing i heard was Humans still were canibals not that long ago and occasionally stiil are. And afaik it was all dead what the canibalized.. :rolleyes:

It's what you look for and or what you ignore.. Search for it and you'll surely find articles about scientific studies stating that even fish likely have attributes like emotions.

What you intent to believe in this is rather personal... As said before no pun intented i'm not judging you if you don't.. :thumbup:

Please go to http://www.seriouslyfish.com/ and search their data base.. Its about the most complete one to find out there.. Find a fish where is stated at "Aquarium Size" and "Behaviour and Compatibility" that it is suitable for a bowl.. Take that one and you're good to go..
 
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Last thing i heard was Humans still were canibals not that long ago and occasionally stiil are. And afaik it was all dead what the canibalized.. :rolleyes:
Human became cannibals in famines out of desperation as recently as in North Korea, but don't do it on regular basis. For religious belief, some Indian warriors ate parts of their enemies to destroy their spirit, and New Guinean women ate the brain of their dead ancestors to perpetuate their spirit.

You were already given the answer... several times... but you're just not taking it.
With the right fish, it's not torturing. Thousands of betta live happily in quart jars and aren't stressed. Paradise fish will be happy too and can withstand extreme temp variation betta cannot, but they are not nano and will annihilate the shrimp. Except for small space, my gallon bowl has excellent water quality and good oxygen supply from dense planting.
 
Fish might not have higher emotions but it could be argued that stress is very similar to a basic fear emotion. Stress has definitely been observed in fish with confined conditions being one of the major factors.

Now I'm not saying a fish will be stressed from being put it your tank and it depends a lot on the species of fish and what they can tolerate naturally but I think you'd be struggling to find a species that thrived in the conditions you have.

What other species do you keep in your other tanks? Perhaps you could raise a couple of fry from something in there and move them to a different tank as they grow.
 
I rather suspect that tiger15 (whom I hope will remain an active member of ukaps) will emigrate unsuitable (or pale stressed) fish from the bowl to another tank

How many Iwagumi or light color substrate tanks abound on this forum, or tanks without a dark side (black or blue background) ... all off these conditions contribute significantly to fish stress
Not keeping shoaling/schooling species in species groups of at least 20-30 (or more) is also stressful, yet 8-10 has become an accepted number, also the assumption that similar sized species are happy shoaling together ... despite phenotypic & behavioural differences
 
With the right fish, it's not torturing. Thousands of betta live happily in quart jars and aren't stressed.

That's not the point.. :) The point people still putting Betta fish in jars promote it with a fantasy thought that the fish still is happy. This to make others copy this absurd custom to make a profit. It might not be torture for a moment in time as long as the water in the jar can sustain it. The moment it can't anymore the animal will die an agenizing death. Many do, all failure stories swept fanaticaly under the carpet. The goldfish can live up to 30 years, the majority the ones kept in bowls don't make over 3 years. If you make it up to 5 you are a championado in titled of a medle. :rolleyes: It can live 30 years, but hence i loved it to death in 3.. That's far from torture!? Isn't it... :clap:

There are dog breeds that are bred with a beuatifull neet and gorgious small heads, unfortunately to small, the brain keeps growing and grows to big. Eyes pop out, makes them look even more adorable, the dog suffers from chronic migrane.. Some even go mad from the pain they have to endure and have to put down by the vet. Torture? No man that's also love, loved to death. It's all about love only put in a morbid way. Practicing this is more about loving yourself than loving the animal in question.

All true all recorded facts....

It still happens on every street corner.. The debate about it is as endless, ludicrous and fruitless as the debate between the atheist and the theologist.

Just try to find the logic and morallity behind the fact, why peopel advice against keeping fish in unfiltered and etc etc. bowls. Just give it a thought.

IMHO the morallity and logic behind it is that you put the fish at risk, the day you discover the bowl crashed, the fish are most likely very dead, or sick, or at least in very bad shape. In very small water volumes this can happen overnight, while you are happily snorring and dreaming. About all the compliments you get from friends about your beautifull small fish in small bowls.. It's a very common experience a lot of poeple tried before you. That's the reason why most responsible people advice against it. You shouldn't put the life of any animal under your care at unnecessary risk. It's the opposite of caretaking. We advice against that, no mater the arguments..

And if you want to put that all aside, still think litely of it and find it all exaggerated overconcerned BS.. And still determined to reinvent the wheel and make a rounder one.
Than you just should do that and proof us all wrong. Just remember "It takes more than one swallow to make a summer". :thumbup:
 
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With the right fish, it's not torturing. Thousands of betta live happily in quart jars and aren't stressed.

Come on now, that statement is too bold to make! :confused:

I was in an LFS today and saw about 30 betta in little jar-like containers and i can honoustly state that none of them looked happy. At all!!
There is a huge difference between "(vegetative) survival" and "living happily".
So, a bold statement like yours needs an equally bold answer:

Let me phrase your words slightly different:

"With the right fish it's really easy to torture whilst denying the abuse. Few fish complain...
Thousands and thousands of betta live a life full of torture and abuse. They pay full price for their ability to breath air and are kept in terrible conditions, just because "they can take it". :meh:
Bored into depression they actually can't be bothered with stress, they just survive, merely exist."
;)
For what it's worth: your bowl is totally unsuited for fish.
For me it's too small for any animal.
Snail, shrimp or fish: no animal deserves to live in something like this imo.
 
But i agree, i know why the caged bird sings.. It sings of freedom..

That's right!
You know, somewhere in history someone "discovered" that some birds sing better when they are in a cage with low light and blinded windows.
Subsequently another "birdlover" had great succes in the popular "Most songs in one hour-Contests" ( :( yeh, i know) with his birds after blinding them (by scorching the eyelids together). But this blinding was done with, and out of, love! Ofcourse!
They were the original BFF's: Bird Friends Forever!!

So as you can imagine it then became the "norm" and for years they "played" with blind finches. If it works it must be a good idea they probably said as an excuse...
Hey, they still sing, even more, so they must be living the happy life, totally free of stress...
Meh, i beg to differ actually...

Nowadays blinding the birds is illegal but the "song-counting-hobby" still exists. Countless finches exist in cages, providing songs on command, to thank their owners for the easy-life.
These finches usually live long lives but that doesn't say a thing about the life-quality or their state of mind...

To be or not to be?
Well....
they are but actually they are not...
 
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A simple question has turned into animal cruelty lectures expanding to bird and dog LOL.

Experienced fish keepers rarely torture their beloved fish on purpose. Only novice made the mistake of housing more fish than their housing.

Interestingly, animal right activists protest mistreatment of lab mammals, factory grown cow and chicken, but never bother food fish and shrimp in aquaculture, neither do fish hobbyists care.

I was in an LFS today and saw about 30 betta in little jar-like containers and i can honoustly state that none of them looked happy.
True, many LFSs place betta in deplorable tiny cups for temporary storage, and many novice copy and think it's OK. But that's not how Betta hobbyists and breeders raise their fish. They are placed in quart size jars, at the minimum, and get regular water change as breeders know that unhappy fish will not grow or breed for them. Betta are non-schooling fish, breath air, so do fine in small quarter with stagnant water not much different from their rice paddies habitats.

Fish might not have higher emotions but it could be argued that stress is very similar to a basic fear emotion.
Fear is instinct, not emotion, to avoid getting eaten. Even lowly insects show fear when cornered.

The goldfish can live up to 30 years, the majority the ones kept in bowls don't make over 3 years.
Those who keep a goldfish in a bowl is not a hobbyist. Goldfish hobbyists keep them in pond and big tanks.

Blinding song bird
I hope the blind song bird is not real, just a parable. Song birds sing because males use song to claim terrotory and females. The more they hear from their competitors, the harder they sing. Pet song birds will go silent if they don't hear from their competitors. In China where song bird keeping is big, there are many bird parks where bird lovers and pet birds go to party so they can hear and compete with one another.

Not keeping shoaling/schooling species in species groups of at least 20-30 (or more) is also stressful,
Yes, keeping schooling fish as a loner can be stressful. This may be the secondary constraint in keeping nano fish in nano tank, water stability being the primary. I am used to keeping large cichlid in big tanks. Nano fish, shrimp and plants are new to me. But nano is such a trendy thing in the hobby that I don't want to miss the many variety suddenly become available.
 

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I hope the blind song bird is not real, just a parable.

I'm sorry to break your heart but unfortunately the blinding of these finches was more then real. I'm not the parable kind of guy. ;)
It was done for quite some time. At first being "mainstream practice" amongst this (in Belgium quite big) fanbase. :mad:

After many complaints, efforts and time it was decided that the blinding was not "animal-friendly" so it became illegal.
Nevertheless it still carried on "secretly" for years before it died a silent death only because the olskool oldtimers had to die off first....
Who is going to rob an 80-year of his beloved/blinded bird?
That is like stealing candy from a kid i guess.
 
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How can blind bird feed if it can’t see. Birds have heightened sight sense, but poor in smell and touch. They can hear well, but no echo location ability to find food.
 
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I am trying to show off my big tanks, one high tech 75 gal with small / medium cichlid, and the other unplanted 125 gal with big cichlid. My planted shrimp bowl is 3 months old, surprisingly successful with no algae in day one. My high tech 75 is still battling with minor BBA and difficult plants after a year.
 

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How can blind bird feed if it can’t see. Birds have heightened sight sense, but poor in smell and touch. They can hear well, but no echo location ability to find food.

Hmm, you have a point but you have to take in account that these birds were kept in 30cm/30cm30cm boxes all the time. They had only one stick to sit on (the lucky ones had two) and the food and drinks were always at the same spot.

On the other hand birds are quite smart and have a good memory.
When i was 8 or 9 i had a neighbour who robbed two Eurasian jay-chicks from the nest. (again: :() to raise them by hand.
One of them didn't respond well during feeding and it looked like it was not going to make it.
My uncle was a vet and during a visit i managed to let him take a look at the problem jay. He noticed that the bird had very poor eyesight and seemed to be going blind gradually. (possibly caused by genetic reasons, possibly due to unsuited food...)
So the neighbour decided to euthanize the bird.
Me and my sisters make a big scene (as only kids can) and finally we won and the bird moved home. We had the time and we had the will so we fed it massive amounts of high grade foods all day long, carried the bird with us all the time and he grew stronger by the day.
His eyes continued to turn white thou... :(
My dad made a big birdhouse (3m by 2m and 2m high), we filled it with sticks and branches so he could work his way up and down without flying and we introduced it before the bird was blind completely.
In the end i had this bird for 16 years and he was completely blind before his first birthday. But he knew every spot of his cage, he moved along the branches very fast and full of confidence. Finding his food, his water and his branches was no problem but as soon as one of the branches fell down or moved position he was lost of course...
He even used the floor of the cage and never seemed to loose position,he washed in a bowl of water and jumped on your finger when you touched his feet.
I'll never forget this bird and his brave survival skills!
 
Interesting story! Eurasian jay-chicks belongs to the crow family which are among the smartest bird. Scientists found certain crows can solve problems in experiments faster than primates, some use and make tool, and some engage in purposeless play. I kept a few song finches when I was a kid. Now I watch birds in my backyard bird feeders, and occasionally go out bird watching.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-44654098
 
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Update: I’ve given up and conclude that no nano fish can fit in my shrimp bowl. I’ll stick with shrimp and look for a second species that can coexist with my Neo in 7.6 pH, 6kH water. Do I have chance with Caradina species in alkaline water?
 
On the other hand birds are quite smart and have a good memory.

Beautifull story.. Thank you for sharing.. :)

We still know very little of how nature realy works and lots of things go way beyond our imagination.

I guess we've all seen the movie Avatar... :) Where the planet Pandora was entirely connected as one communicating symbiotic entity. Mater a fact this part of the story is based uppon a real study from a Canadian biologist who discovered and prooved that tree spieces live in symbiosis with several fungus spieces and create a vast subterranean connective root network. They collect and share natural recourses and share information. Mother trees even recognize and are connected with and share with and care for their kin offspring. Hard to believe (we know so little), completely out of our grasp of understanding, but far from sciencefiction, already there for probably millions of years, it happens bellow our feet, out of our sight and understanding.
 
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