Twinstar light issue

[H.Alves]

So yesterday I have received the so long anticipated twinstar 1200sa. After wondering which light to pick I decided to take advantage of a small introduction discount of the new light.

But, unfortunately, It was a bitter sweat experience.

So I have received the light only to find out there was a big issue with the diffuser. So the plastic diffuser on my twinstar is 2-3mm shorter than the metal frame, rendering it prone to water infiltration and possible condensation within the diffuser. This can not only affect how light is diffused but most importantly, moisture can significantly shorten LEDs lifespan.

also an youtube video of the issue:



And, unfortunately, as that was not enough, my light came without protective plastics and with a cosmetic damage to it.

So as soon as I received it, I contacted Twinstar to arrange a replacement and to my surprise I was told they are out of stock. They were introduced less than a week ago.

I firmly believe this is obviously a manufacture defect that twinstar EU is not willing to address.

So to make matters worse, I just got an email from them saying that they are the brand most used in aquascaping, bla, bla, bla and are unable to replace my fixture since its currently out of stock. they then, basically, told me to either send it back and wait till end of February for them to be back in stock to purchase a new one (but since they will be more expensive and the introduction discount no longer applies, I would have to pay significantly more for it), or keep it as is.

I find it ridiculous that a 479.99€ fixture (price will increase) presents such manufacture defect and twinstar is not willing to address the issue accordingly.

They are willing to sponsor shops, events and aquascapers, but can´t as a gesture of good will and great customer service, replace an obvious manufacture defect from a client that actually paid for it.

I am speechless on how they are treating customers and firmly believe that is how a brand loose clients.

Can you guys please confirm you don't have such a gap on your light fixtures? and that legs on the "sa" versions don't come wrapped on tissue paper?

 

[zozo]

First that comes to mind.. How did you pay?

In case Paypal or credit card than put them on the case.. Today even some private banks offer buyer protection if money is transeref via them.. Than you have money back garantee.. So see if you can address this dispute to them and put them on the case.. After all it is a customers right to demand a refund if goods are recieved not as described or damaged. Anyway both cases apply, it is either damaged or it simply isn't the product following description. Out of stock obsolete model doesn't make warrenty nor customers rights obsolete.



And paypal or creditcard suppliers take cases like this rather serious.. Because the seller also throws their good name out of the window. The don't wanna do bussiness with crooks..

 

[Siege]

Yes the 1200 are out of stock. I think they just had a few in Europe and have already dispatched them to shops.

What shop did you get it from? have a chat with them.

Ricciardo the Twinstar EU distributor is a helpful reasonable chap. Talk to Twinstar. I’m sure they will let you use the current light and then swap to a new one when available in feb.

Failing that ask him what shops they are currently in stock at. Could he ask one of them to send you one?

Just a few thoughts. I’m sure it won’t be a problem to if you make a suggestion or 2.

Ps. Just checked on my 900 SA light. There are no gaps.
The diffuser covers aren’t stuck at each end though so you can push them up. I have dunked by 600S light a couple of times without issue, So assume the water proofing is behind the diffuser.

 

[Stu Worrall]

Thats pretty rubbish service from them. tbh with that tissue paper it looks to me like you've been sent a shop display/second hand unit?

 

[H.Alves]

Ricciardo the Twinstar EU distributor is a helpful reasonable chap. Talk to Twinstar. I’m sure they will let you use the current light and then swap to a new one when available in feb.

Just a few thoughts. I’m sure it won’t be a problem to if you make a suggestion or 2.
.

Well that is exactly what I have suggested once I was told they were out of stock. I told him my aquarium was still not running since I am still on the process of gathering everything but the last thing I wanted is to have to wait till end feb for them to be back in stock, not to mention the fact I would have to pay considerably more for something I already have, which makes no sense.

The reply I got was, that they were out of stock, and in case I wanted I could send this one if in pristine condition (which they know its not) for a refund. There was never a mention I could keep it and exchange it for a new one once those became available or they would accept the light as it know (with the cosmetic issue).

I am deeply disappoint with the way this process is being handled.

Shop was in Portugal, the place where Ricardo is from.

 

[H.Alves]

Thats pretty rubbish service from them. tbh with that tissue paper it looks to me like you've been sent a shop display/second hand unit?

I had exactly the same impression. There were some obvious signs that the box has been previously opened since some padding and wrapping material was missing in comparison with video unboxes I have seen online and some of the inner paper padding was bent/teared due to previous opening. Shop claims that they have not opened it and ordered upon request, but I highly doubt it. Did not want to make a big deal since I expected that twinstar would replace the fixture due the the defect all both issue would be fixed at once.

I even suggested they deliver the new and pick the old one on the same time frame via the courier.

The tissue paper is kind of a joke and the supports inside it, were not wrapped in protective plastic, which apparently thats the way they come.

Unfortunately the shop claims they have no more units and, apparently, they are out of stock. They are willing to offer a refund but I also would not like to loose the discount I had. the diference between the price I paid and the new 2019 price is around 75€, which is still a lot. If it wasn´t for the discount, I would have sent it back right away. I am against the fence and the only solution I see is to keep using it until end of February and then use the warranty claim to have both issues fixes.

 

[zozo]

I decided to take advantage of a small introduction discount of the new light.

If you have proof of a misleading advertisement that states you will recieve a brand new product for a discount introduction price and they send you a used and damaged one. Than you simply have the right for a replacement, to get what you payed for. If it is out of stock till february next year than this is their problem. That is your legal right.

If they lured you in with a misleading advertisement to get rid of used showroom peices is rather illicit. The offer of sending it back for a refund and wait till february and buy again without the discount also.

The problem is, if you didn't pay with a bank service that offers you Buyers protection assistance. Than you have to go to a lawyer, unfortunately that lawyer will be a tad more expensive than the discount.

Or you get on with the dispute, claim your rights, threaten with legal action/lawsuit (even if you can't they don't know that.)
"The pen is mightier than the sword" And send them a link to this thread and promise to open a few more at any forum you can find.

And take the lesson, next time use a payment service that offers buyers protection assistance.

Ps. If you realy can proof they are luring people in with misleading advertisements letting Twinstar itself know who they are dealing with might be of help as well.

 

[rebel]

I think the discount is not relevant to this discussion.

They are willing to offer a refund for faulty goods so I think that's good enough. Check your local laws though.

I agree with your disappointment regarding sending you a damaged unit or packing it without care. At this price point, premium product needs to perform on all points and the company needs to go an extra mile to make people happy.

 

[zozo]

They are willing to offer a refund for faulty goods so I think that's good enough.

Personaly i would do the same, take the refund and be done with it..

But there are laws, it might differ from country to country.. But i guess for sellers placing misleading advertisments is illicit in any European country.
If you are up to the fight and want to go the whole lenght with all the hassle just for the principle of it. You might win in the end.. If all the hassle is worth €75 is up to you to decide..

 

[Andrew Butler]

Ricciardo the Twinstar EU distributor is a helpful reasonable chap

I agree, if you haven't spoke with him direct then lookup twinstar Iberica on facebook but your contract does lie with whoever supplied you with the light and not Twinstar.

The reply I got was, that they were out of stock, and in case I wanted I could send this one if in pristine condition (which they know its not) for a refund. There was never a mention I could keep it and exchange it for a new one once those became available or they would accept the light as it know (with the cosmetic issue)

I'm quite sure this is the same in Europe and I'm also assuming your brought it online and not at a LFS but you have 14 days to notify the retailer of the fault, they have no option but to accept the refund and also pay for the return postage.
Again assuming you brought the product online you have 14 days to simply change your mind and send the item back only it is then your responsibility to pay for the return postage.
If there is a fault reported with the item in the first 6 months it is down to them to prove it was your fault and not theirs.
Always sign for parcels as 'unchecked' then you have a bit more power too.

keep using it until end of February and then use the warranty claim to have both issues fixes

I don't see how these are faults that would be fixed under warranty so agree with most here; send it back for a full refund or live with a faulty light.

 

[H.Alves]

The point is Twinstar told me they are willing to offer a refund if item is in pristine condition (inside and outside), which is obviously not the case due to the cosmetic fault it has. They were aware of that, since in the initial email I have attached pictures of everything. Its also kind of funny they knew already the issue almost before I send them an email. Ricardo and the shop owner are kind of friends (both from Lisbon) and held together a scape event sponsored by Twinstar the weekend just before it was shipped (Tuesday). The discount according to twinstar was due to the "official introduction of the item in Portugal" and as a marketing strategy for the scape event. This past weekend all twinstar items were with 15% discount at the shop if purchased before the event.

I think the discount is actually quite relevant for the discussion since if I return this item now and get a full refund, I would have to pay, at least, 75€ more in order to get the same item as I already have now, since discount is no longer valid and price for 2019 will increase. Not to mention that, if I want this fixture, I will have to wait, at least, till end of February, but even they don't know for sure when it will be back in stock.

When asked, the shop owner told me they did not have this article in stock but I could pre-ordered it prior to the weekend event, and it would arrive (this past Monday) and by Tuesday it was on my way. And indeed was shipped by Tuesday. They "apparently" ordered it before the weekend (and the event) and it was of course a brand new item. I would never buy a showroom piece because we can never know for how many hours its was on, and LEDs do have a finite lifespan. Not to mention that showroom items are much more prone to issues due to the fact they are tossed around there and people can come by and touch. Usually they also travel from event to event, and its never the same as buy a brand new article. Some times they are even pré-production versions of it. Another thing I noticed is that nowhere in the product or box, there is a serial number for the article. I find it quite strange because pretty much all comercial items have serial number so they can track production date/manufactory, etc...

I honestly don't understand why should I pay more and have to wait 2-3 months for a replacement for an item I already have. For me, it just doesn´t make sense. It´s not really my fault, that they are out of stock and sent me a dud. They should provide a replacement, and if not available at the moment, it would have been a gesture of good will and great customer service to let me keep this one till the stock is back up or, at very least, take this fixture now, and send me a new one once its back again. They could very well make a backorder for shops in EU that potentially still have on in stock. Companies do that all the time.

I just did not expected this, specially for a premium brand, but comes to show that some brands (less premium) have much better customer service that some renown ones.

 

[H.Alves]

I agree, if you haven't spoke with him direct then lookup twinstar Iberica on facebook but your contract does lie with whoever supplied you with the light and not Twinstar.

I'm quite sure this is the same in Europe and I'm also assuming your brought it online and not at a LFS but you have 14 days to notify the retailer of the fault, they have no option but to accept the refund and also pay for the return postage.
Again assuming you brought the product online you have 14 days to simply change your mind and send the item back only it is then your responsibility to pay for the return postage.
If there is a fault reported with the item in the first 6 months it is down to them to prove it was your fault and not theirs.
Always sign for parcels as 'unchecked' then you have a bit more power too.

I don't see how these are faults that would be fixed under warranty so agree with most here; send it back for a full refund or live with a faulty light.

Ricardo is the person I have been in contact with.

Indeed I have ordered it online hence the 14/15 days return window but, despite that, there is a 2 year compulsory manufactory warranty. But again, as mentioned previously, they are only willing to take it back without any internal or external damage, and even if I send it back I never know what they will tell me after. Also a customer should never be at a loss, since even if they do decide to give a refund I could never purchase the same item, for the same price, and would have to wait for 3 months.

Parcel was send via courier so I had to sign the delivery. They know the time I receive the package and that I have contacted them immediately after I have received it. So they know it has not been used. I also have pictures of the opening process just in case that show the defects.

Although, It would be much better to have it replaced, I think its pretty easy to have it fixed. They just need to exchange de diffuser (its a plastic sheet) for one the same size of the metal frame, and change the aluminium frame to remove the cosmetic failure. The expensive part of the light is the LEDs itself not the aluminium frame, or plastic diffuser. So they could very well refurbish the old unit or keep using it in events as a promotional/showroom material.

 

[Ricardo Romão]

Dear all,

Just to make everything clear here.

1. The 1-2mm gap in the acrylic diffuser was made on purpose, in order to ensure the best performance;
2. In case of a product defect, the customer has 15 days to change it;
3. If there is no stock, the customer can ask a refund to the retailer;
4. Twinstar will cover any problem under the warranty period;
5. For any problem, the retailer can call us. We have a phone line for it in order to solve any problem asap;
6. There are official prices for every product in EU and UK. Discounts may be applied in very specific situations;
7. We understand the packing issues. We all know how shipping companies work, and unfortunately we cannot control the shipping process. So external and internal packing was made to avoid any damage and to accommodate the damage themselves.

Of course!!, we never sell showroom products to the retailers. Also this is a new model...

Any doubts or additional product information will be only replied by email.

For general questions feel free to contact us at facebook, instagram, email, face to face

All the best,
Ricardo

 

[Andrew Butler]

they are only willing to take it back without any internal or external damage

You mean the damage that arrived with the light? - put it in an email to them with photos explaining it was like it when it arrived to you and for this reason you would like to return it.
How are you to know an item is damaged or not until you open it?

there is a 2 year compulsory manufactory warranty

I very much doubt a warranty would cover things such as cosmetic damage and the acrylic being too short - that's things you should inspect for when new as you have and if faulty sent back for refund or exchange at their expense
*update

Twinstar will cover any problem under the warranty period;

surely things like this should be sorted when you purchase an item and am very shocked to know you would rectify cosmetic problems; if I dropped my light and dented it you are saying you would repair/replace it?

Your issue here @H.Alves is with the retailer and not Ricardo @ Twinstar in my opinion.

 

[H.Alves]

You mean the damage that arrived with the light? - put it in an email to them with photos explaining it was like it when it arrived to you and for this reason you would like to return it.
How are you to know an item is damaged or not until you open it?


I very much doubt a warranty would cover things such as cosmetic damage and the acrylic being too short - that's things you should inspect for when new as you have and if faulty sent back for refund or exchange at their expense
*update surely things like this should be sorted when you purchase an item and am very shocked to know you would rectify cosmetic problems; if I dropped my light and dented it you are saying you would repair/replace it?

Your issue here @H.Alves is with the retailer and not Ricardo @ Twinstar in my opinion.

I think they meant no cosmetic damaged on the outside frame or any internals, not the box itself.

Of course, you should be able to prove the damage was already there at day one, which was the case. Within the initial 30 days, most companies just replace the item, no questions asked, if shown it was there upon receival. After that period, other defects can and should be covered by warranty if shown to be a manufacture defect and not a user induced one.

Never said the issues was only with Twinstar. Of course, the retailer is responsible as well, specially is proven the article was not completely new, which I suspect since some packing material and plastic protections were missing. But since there was what I suspect a manufacture defect, its twinstar that have the power to fix it. At max, the shop can intermediate the discussion with twinstar, which they also did. The shop is also not completely responsible for price fluctuations, so the max they can offer is money back, and only twinstar can offer a product voucher, which would cover the replacement of the item without further costs to the client.

Despite the fact that no one else seems to have the same problem, and I have asked around, twinstar keeps on saying the gap is intentional, even though they have also informed me that " the size of the gap" can vary from fixture to fixture, whatever that is supposed to mean. Talking about manufacture tolerances. If others claim they have the acrylic diffuser completely flush to the metal frame not sure how a 2-3mm gap is supposed to be within manufacture tolerances or intentional. In that case, this is apparently normal and the other users might have an issue with theirs...

 

[zozo]

not sure how a 2-3mm gap is supposed to be within manufacture tolerances or intentional

Technicaly simply explained if the cover is Acrylic.

coefficient of expansion PMMA = 0,07: 0,07: mm/m/°C

that is 0.07mm expansion in 1 metre material per °C

Assuming the thing calculated for reaching 50°C x 0.07 = 3, 5mm x 1,2 = 4,2 mm.. That would be measured from 0°C to 50°C

Have no idea what the factury hold for average starting temp.. That could be 20°C, than you have to substract this. Just an example if the temp exceeds 50°C it obviously needs more play to expand.

Also obviously, for same light in shorter version than 1200 mm needs less play..

Why it should be an open gap? It's a matter of design..Plastic materials expand far more than metals in regard of the aluminium casing..

 

[H.Alves]

That is a good point but raises a couple questions.

1) Assuming that the unit would reach such high temperatures all around, then we would expect an expansion in all directions and not only in the longitudinal one. The diffuser is tightly fitted on the width side. Even assuming the width to be much smaller, if that was a real problem it could still potentially pose an issue.

2) From what I have seen, from initial observations, it doesn´t seem to get too hot. Slightly warm to touch on the metal frame only. I think the diffuser hardly gets warm but, to be honest, I haven't left it on long enough (maybe 1-2 hours). I will leave it on for 8 or so hours and see if there is a visible difference on the gap and whether the diffuser is warm. Most of the temperature will be on the circuit board and metal frame. I think aluminium was used since its a good heat conductor, light and aesthetically appealing. I believe that the diffuser will not get hot. But time will tell. Also if expansion would be an issue then this product is not well designed since pretty much every other brand make the diffusers inside de frame and wider than the opening so that there would be room for possible expansion without deformation. Otherwise how could other brands archive full waterproof led fixtures with this kind of design? Its simply not possible.

3) I do believe if the gap was intentionally left there, it would have been not for expansion reasons but for air to go through since its a fanless design. But opening on the side groves on the metal frame would probably allow better heat transfer. I do think the possibility of water infiltration, splashes, condensation, water residues accumulation can pose a much higher risk to the overall lifespan of the product than the difference on temperature that the gap would provide. Assuming a led to be used with rams or discus in the 37+ C temperatures, the water evaporation that takes place over a week is massive. And, even though, most of the water will evaporate due to heat when the Light is running, the fixture will be off at least 16 hours a day and water will still be evaporating during that time and possible condensation inside. Do you agree with that?

I have a dirty cheap nicrew plus 80cm an even in that one there is no gap on the diffuser.

At least I was informed I will be able to keep till is back in stock just not sure whether they will exchange it for a new one of fix this one. I do really hope they do exchange it for a new one.

What are the potential risks of an acrylic diffuser completely tight to the metal frame if the diffuser doesn't warm? At least water infiltration would be avoided...

 

[zozo]

1)

You have the formula above it indeed exapnds in all directions.. But beeing 30cm? wide than 0.07mm/m/C° it's about neglectable and 1mm play more than enough.

2)

A guess, not only working temperature is taken into account but aso storage temperature.. Imagine it beeing shipped in a container.. It can get pretty hot if this stands in the sun and pretty cold at night in freezing conditions.

3)

Indeed partialy believe, partialy technical experience and also cost effective design.. Regardless the lenght the width likely is the same for several lenghts. Than the endcaps are likely a one size fit all prefab for different lenghts, based on the shortest in that range and make consesions for the longer models. In this case the concesion for the 1200mm + long models is, a 4mm gap for the cover.

As said, that is an educated guess, still it is rather a cheap unaesthetic design flaw. If it realy needs extra air flow for cooling? For that money they could have thought for a more aesthetic solution in the end caps. (sorry to spill my opinion, not intended to bash this product)

But if you realy go bonkers on those gaps, google for Rubber Edging trims and find one that fits the covers thickness and fill the gap with that.
You also could search the RC modeling web shops, they will have small sizes aluminium U profile that are simmular to edging trims might look better tah rubber or plastic. I personaly do not see it as an air vent, simply because of physics, warm air always rises, there is no gap at the top to vent it. So if they clain for cooling purpose is again a cheap excuse.

 

[Tim Harrison]

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck...

 

[H.Alves]

Opinions are more than welcome since I am myself trying to understand the rational behind this. I just find it either a manufacture flaw, or if made on purpose, probably a design flaw. I will try to see the oficial explanation for it.