Going Green for the first time

[AlgaeFarmer]

Hello,

Im about to start my first planted tank. I have been doing a lot of research, been thoroughly confused, I'm ready to ask questions.

First a little background. I used to keep an Oscar and a Severum, tap water was high in nitrates so my water changes were huge and very often. My oscar passed at 10 years ish. We were moving house so I gave my severum to the LFS. I now have a daughter and im looking to reduce my aquarium work.

Current set up:

2ftx2ftx5ft Tank 560L, 2 fluorescent 36w tubes (without reflectors), FX6 Filter

I would like to create a low maintenance, low tech aquarium and low cost aquarium. No c02, aiming for a once per month WC. I would like to start with 1 species of carpet plant.

Questions:

Whats the minamun number plants would I actually need to fully carpet the tank?

What might happen if I bought fewer plants and attempted to grow a small patch to begin with?

How would a smaller patch cope when cycling the tank?

Could I grow the plants immersed in the tank for a few months, then submerse them?

Does anyone have experience planting and growing DHG on westlands pond soil or similar?

Do I have enough light with/without reflectors?

I've read Dwarf hair grass is easy for beginners. I've also read a lot of recommendations for beginners not to go for it; which is true?

Many thanks

Richard

 

[Konsa]

Hi
Im afraid with tank that big its not going to be easy to grow carpet from the usual plants considered (DHG,Lilaeopsis, monte carlo they all need good light ,ferts and usually CO2 suplement to carpet)
With that tank I will consider Cryptocorine as A foreground plants. If they have good light hitting them they will stay low and leaves grow flat on substrate.If not that try Helanthum tenelum it is a bit more invasive once it gets going.
About soil substrate have a look here
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/
U will need low fish stock and hell loads of plants on starting to pull off once per month WC without getting every algae under the sun
Regards Konsa

 

[Edvet]

You are going for a "low tech tank'' . These can be beautifull tanks.
You don''t need more light but there are a few things to take in consideration. Lower light means slower growth ( but also more time to see. trouble coming)
You can use regular ( river) sand as long as you feed the plants through adding ferts to the watercolumn, a ''soiled" tank is another possibility, it will need ferts too, just a bit less.
Start with a lot of plants, this will help stabilising the tank. This can be cheap plants (pondplants) which you can exchange for others in the long run. A thick carpet will take a longer time in a low tech, use Heliantun tenellum or Sagittaria subulata.
Do large waterchanges in the beginning, 50% twice a week for a few weeks, then if all is growing well taper it of.
Emersed growth can help increasing your amount of plants, but when filling the tank use a lot of plants, this realy helps.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Whats the minamun number plants would I actually need to fully carpet the tank?

Planting densely from the outset is the way to go as @Edvet says. And no you don't have to have a carpet at all.

What might happen if I bought fewer plants and attempted to grow a small patch to begin with?

The more plants the more stable the system the less likelihood of algae issues, and more plants gives you more wriggle room; they will absorb rookie mistakes, which is always good when you're just starting out.

How would a smaller patch cope when cycling the tank?

More plants helps cycle the tank quicker, they will help inoculate the tank and filter with bacteria, and help with water quality and reduce algae by absorbing organics.

Could I grow the plants immersed in the tank for a few months, then submerse them?

I'd definitely have a go at growing the carpet emersed using the DSM, not so much other plants...info on this can be found in the tutorial linked by @Konsa above.

Does anyone have experience planting and growing DHG on westlands pond soil or similar?

It'll like the soil, but it's not a good plant for a low-energy tank (fine for a beginner in a high-energy tank); it needs good CO2 and light. I think it'd slowly disappear or revert to type; I had a batch that started to grow quite tall, so with less than ideal conditions it's a possibility. I'd choose a different species, like that already suggested by Ed and Konsa above or if you fancied something that might grow a little finer a Lilaeopsis spp.

Do I have enough light with/without reflectors?

I woud think so, I'm guessing they are T8s, which IME are perfect for low-energy and will grow most of these plants in this low energy plant list very well, rather than algae... https://tropica.com/en/plants/?tabIndex=1&alias=Easy I'd begin without reflectors at first and see how you go. You can always add them later once the tank has become biologically mature if you feel you need more light.

 

[AlgaeFarmer]

Thankyou this is all very helpful.

I get the impression that a big tank means stabillity but acheiving this stabillity its going to take a long and slow build up.

I am so glad that you have provided suggestions for alternatives to DHG. I love the look of DHG, but I have read it can easily go wrong with beginners.

I would really like to go heavily planted from the off, but to carpet this tank I was quoted £160 for plants only, which to me is alot! I don't want to put all my eggs in one bascket only to have all the plants die because I made a rookie mistake; which will probably happen at some point.

So how about this for a plan; I buy one pot of each plant mentioned above (maybe two and includeing dhg, well you never know). I spread them out and identify them with labels, fill the tank and watch to find out which grows best in the imediate enviroment. I read I should begin with 6 hours light exposure to begin with. Does this sounds right?

If I find any of the plants survive or show more growth etc. I would increase the number of plants of that species, adding fish only once the cycle is complete. Then add more fish as I add more plants, monitoring the nitrates as I go. Subsiquently whats a good an acceptible for nitrates in ppm. for oscars I was always chaseing 0ppm (never got there)

Eventually acheiving a stable heavily planted enviroment. If I'm not keen on the aesthtics of the most suitable plant I will then consider slowly replaceing it.

Does that sound like it might work?

This might take a few years folks

 

[Tim Harrison]

As Ed said previously it doesn't have to be expensive. You can fill the tank with relatively cheap stems like Ceratophyllum demersum, Egeria densa, and Hygrophila difformis which grow well and quite fast even low-energy. These will give you the high plant biomass needed for stability. You can then replace them as you go along. Other than that, it's always a good idea to experiment with plants, since everyones tank is different, and what may grow in one may not in another. But either way, if you don't have a high plant biomass from the start you may be making life unnecessarily difficult for yourself.

6 hr photoperiod to start is correct. Take a look at the tutorial Konsa mentioned above. It will help you get off to a good start.

Just one other thought, are trying to create a low-energy Iwagumi ?

 

[AlgaeFarmer]

Yep low energy iwagumi.

Why would a low plant biomass cause me issues (apart from water changes)

and how much of an issue might it be?

 

[Tim Harrison]

Okay, I understand now. I think you're are about to attempt something that an experienced aquascaper would find challenging and possibly wouldn't attempt in the first place, since most would just inject CO2.
Low-energy lawns never really grow densely and take a very long time to become established. Take a look at this https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/carpet-plant.56299/#post-547332 and this https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-tech-lawns.32597/
But it's not to say it can not be done, with knowledge, experience, and above all patience

 

[AlgaeFarmer]

okay knowledge and experience i don't have. I really like that lush carpet.

I do have a dosing pump (used previously for a nitrate filter, yes they do exist, yes it works, yes its awesome, no I won't use it on this set up), for arguments sake how much liquid co2 might i need per month?


*edit*

https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.../carbon-in-the-planted-aquarium-gas-vs-liquid

is this right for a 600l tank?

£102.52 per year for liquid c02

Mine would have closer to 450 litres so cheaper still.

 

[foxfish]

[QUOTEThis might take a few years folks [/QUOTE]
Hi and welcome to the forum.
You have a nice big tank there!
However you are up against it a bit with your ideas.
Yes it is possible to grow a low tech carpet but certainly no a common achievement!
Tim is one of the few folk on this forum who has managed to succeed using his soil substrate tank method.
Even armed with all the knowledge , you hit the nail on the head by saying .. ‘this might take a few years’
Low tech is Slowwwww....
There are a few hight tech ‘big tanks’ on the forum at the moment but, they are not cheap to set up or maintain.
Less ambitious low tech tanks are quite plentiful on the forum, but you have to be realistic about growth rates and what to really expect from them.
Best advice I can give is to study the forum for a few days (weeks) so you can get a grasp of what is possible

 

[alto]

Rather than spending that amount on liquid carbon (which seems to be a better algicide than CO2 source - though some CO2 IS released through hydrolysis - which rate is pH and temp dependent) I’d invest in a CO2 Fire Extinguisher set up - check out CO2 Art directly or talk to Steve or Dave at Aquarium Gardens (though if you’re going to spend a good while on the phone with them, please be a customer as well)

If you want simple, use Tropica Aquarium Soil as the “dirt” substrate in the areas you want to plant, this will simplify water column dosing as substrate will also support plants without any issue of clouding or too much organics etc
You can also use Tropica Growth Substrate beneath inert fine gravel
Tropica has loads of Inspiration Layouts on their website as well as basic information that is very well laid out - just spend a couple hours clicking all the layered links; also look at their 90Day App

That’s pretty low light - especially as T8 and no reflector- for a 60cm tall tank
It will be a challenge to grow any of the traditioral “carpet” plants
Note that some of the “easy” category plants on Tropica’s website also have recommended CO2, so do look at this aspect in the plant profiles

If you want that lush carpet, you’re going to need to compromise in what you’re willing to do for your plants

With decent light, flow, CO2 - Monte Carlo can be a relatively easy low maintenance (lush) carpet with monthly water changes

It will also fill in fairly quickly with a Dry Start Method
BUT
I suspect you’ll need higher light than the present two no reflector T8’s

In addition, two T8’s across a 60cm tank width, is not going to deliver anywhere near “even” light across the tank

 

[AlgaeFarmer]

Again thankyou for your help. There are some very useful tips and have given me a good feel for what I'm getting into but I think fundamentally I need to find out for myself as there are a few conflicting points here.

I have been in contact with aquarium gardens and they are very good for a newbie. Dave sent me a quote for what I need which come to £700 I do not want to risk that kind of cash; but I will certainly be purchasing from them. Good customer service is often rare these days and something worth paying for.

I will get some reflectors, but I am not willing to replace my lighting set up. It can be extremely expensive. I wouldn't want to spend that kind of money and find planted tanks are not for me.

So I will test the water, figuratively and literally.

I am currently polishing some scratches out of my tank (My Oscar did them, throwing rocks around, not a sign of stress, there just like that, genuinely miss My Oscar)

Once I am happy with the polishing I will think about restarting my tank. Maybe next month or the month after.

When I start I will get some jp aqua soil, maybe mix it with some westlands pond soil. Get some reflectors, some Seachem flourish, plant one of each of the carpeting plants mentioned above (plus java moss, not sure why that hasn't been mentioned) and test how they perform in those conditions.

If they all die they I abandon the carpeted aquarium idea and go with plants that are more suited to my financial limitations. If I find one or two that flourish/perform well then I add some more of that variety. Eventually building my tank until its stable and I can start backing off water changes.

I'll put a thread up when I get going. Wish me luck! Thanks guys!

 

[sparkyweasel]

I think some-one mentioned this upthread; it will help your plants get established, and win the competition with algae, if you have a lot of fast-growing plants.
I would suggest one pot of each potential carpet plant, PLUS a load of cheap stems. As your carpet grows and spreads you can reduce the number of stems until you end up with just the carpet. Pond season starts soon, maybe you could get some big, cheap bunches of Elodea or Hornwort for plantmass. You can leave them floating so they don't root into the substrate, and thin them out regularly so they don't block too much light.
And yes, Good Luck.

 

[foxfish]

Good luck.
Test kits are extreamly controversial, at best they may offer a basic guid line at worse, a totally misleading result.
Lights can be very cheap ie 20w LED flood light £20 or less, there are a few massive tanks powder by theses style of light offering great success.