• You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up

How much carbon in natural waterways?

Hi all,You could try contacting him directly, he is "@plantbrain" on this forum.I agree but I think that is more than a little unfair, in areas where there are peer reviewed papers we've tried to refer to them. This is linked in <"Testing parameters for ei...."> If you read through the forum you will see that there are linked papers for archaea based nitrification in aquarium filters etc.

Have a look at <"Bacteria/biological starter...">.

The problem, for a lot of other areas, is there aren't (m)any peer reviewed science papers specifically on aquariums, so you have to make "best guess" estimations based upon research in plant physiology, aquaculture, waste water treatment and personal experience.

cheers Darrel

Hm, I still haven't had problems finding articles that covers general problems encountered in the hobby. Granted if you look for research on a specific plant that is hard to come by, but articles that can be applied to our aquariums. A good place to start is looking at Kaj Sand-Jensens papers (https://www1.bio.ku.dk/english/staff/?pure=en/persons/49846). Kajs articles are quite good, and his referencelists to other articles are really good and can keep you entertained for days.
 
Fluctuating temps,available O2 ,CO2, PossibleTree canopy cover(plants may see only a couple hours of direct light) ,sediment's, all fluctuate wildly in nature.Most of the plants we attempt to grow,often times do not grow completely submerged in nature.
I believe these factors and causes make comparison's and or difference's between nature, and our glass boxes of water ,significantly troublesome .
Using your argument, can be used to refute the transfer of experiences from one system to another (aquariums). I agree that there is a plethora of variables, but I find it troublesome just discarding research in favor of limited sample sizes from the internet. Yes it takes a very long time to read articles, check references, and in some cases trying to reconcile conflicting research, to take something away from the research that can be used in your aquarium and not everyone wants to do that. Anyway I have always found the following lyrics very useful https://genius.com/Tom-lehrer-lobachevsky-lyrics, when dealing with problems outside my field (just remember to get the references right though)
 
Hi all,
Kajs articles are quite good, and his reference lists to other articles are really good and can keep you entertained for days.
I've seen some of his research groups work on the <"decrease in oligotrophic plant species"> along anthropogenic nutrient gradients.

I'll <"nail my colours to the mast"> and say that I have no doubt that enhanced phosphate and nitrate levels are the markers of eutrophication, and that I have, and will continue to, use high plant mass mainly as a method for reducing nutrient levels. I just want some active plant growth, which is why I've recommended the <"Duckweed Index">.

I don't measure any specific nutrient levels (we have the analytical equipment available, but I don't have the time on a regular basis), I just use the growth of a floating plant and a conductivity datum as a (visual) estimation of nutrient levels. Conductivity I measure because it is the only accurate dip meter that gives a linear response over a large range of water types, and that you don't have to calibrate with every use.

If you start with low conductivity water and your tank water reads ~150 microS, you don't have many ions of any description. If your floating plants are green and still growing you don't need to add any nutrients, it is really straightforward to use as a method.

cheers Darrel
 
I like the concept of an indicator plant put forward by dw1305. I have found duckweed in an aquarium to be too troublesome, but I am now using
Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig, if its looking good then I am happy.
Natural waters often have dominant or frequent plant species which form colonies. These colonies are very indicative of water conditions, not just nutrient levels but water flow patterns over long periods of time. Plant colonies typically survive desilting activities and transient pollution events.
 
Hi all,
I like the concept of an indicator plant put forward by dw1305. I have found duckweed in an aquarium to be too troublesome, but I am now using Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig, if its looking good then I am happy.
Most plants will do, originally I used a floating plant to take CO2 out of the equation (aerial leaves have access to 400ppm of atmospheric CO2).

You are right about Duckweed (Lemna minor) it isn't suitable for every aquarium, it doesn't like low nutrients or soft water, and when its happy it grows like mad and gets every where.

I called it the "Duckweed Index" originally because I based it on the <"Lemna minor bio-assay">. I soon found that there was a better "Duckweed", and that it was Amazon Frogbit (<"Limnobium laevigatum">), it has the advantages of not being effected by water hardness and still maintaining some growth under a low nutrient regime. Its only disadvantage is that it takes longer to show deficiencies of non-mobile nutrients than Duckweed, which has more frequent new leaf production.

This is some really healthy Amazon Frogbit (from <"An iwagumi called ...">)

sigrjybcq-width-3264-height-2448-cropmode-none-jpg.jpg


Have a look at <"Duckweed Index says Nitrogen please?">, it shows what iron deficiency looks like.

cheers Darrel
 
Many years ago I used to have Amazon Frogbit, Loved its roots, but found shading of other plants problematic. Over thinned it and lost it. Will look up the duckweed/iron link, Thanks.
 
Thank you Darrel, an interesting link & discussion on Iron Chelates. I use two products: Solufeed 13 Fe EDTA (13% Fe) and Solufeed TEMag, EDTA Fe, Mg & a shopping list of trace transition metals. My understanding is GpII elements will displace transition metal elements from EDTA. The stability of the other chelating complexes are pH dependent. EDTA is fine in acid to neutral waters but not in marine tanks with their higher pH's, hence other agents.
 
Although journal studies are good reference material, the findings don't always apply to planted tanks due to significant differences between glass box and natural environments, Here are some:

(1) Light Level: Although most aquarium plants are shade plants in nature, the levels of shade in nature is brighter than in planted tank. I used a LUX meter to measure light intensity and converted to PAR for the following illustration. A bright shade in my outdoor under tall tree is between 100 to 200 PAR, and in direct sun between 800 to 2000 PAR. I am in Zone 6 temperate region so light intensity in tropical and suptropical regions is expected to be higher. So in between moving sun under forest canopy, cloud cover and thunderstorms, even a few hours direct sunlight and long bright shade in nature has more overhead light intensity than in a high light tank. That said, many Amazon black and white water are murky or tannin stained that there are no submerged plant growth due to low light penetration.

(2) Plant Diversity: Many creeks in nature do not have submerged plants, and if they do, there are only a handful of species, and some have one to two species dominating to the exclusion of others. Survival of the fittest means that those plant species not best fit for the environment will not exist. It's true that no two ponds are the same and this is why certain plant species dominate in one pond, one creek, one habitat, but not others. Mixing many species in our glass boxes from different habitats, regions and climate is unnatural. In fact, growing submerged plants exclusively in a glass box is rare in nature.

(3) CO2: Most aquarium plants in nature are amphibian, living partially above and below water level, and fully submerged only during flooding season. So they can take aerial advantage in nature as Walstad called it. Walstad systems replicate nature closer than EI system. Walstad acknowledged difficulty growing stem plant, and carpet plants in conjunction with other plants, and she attributed the latter to Allelopathy. I think it's just CO2 limitation in this situation as Barr and others can grow carpet plants with other plants with CO2 injection. Although natural waters can have elevated CO2 above atmospheric diffusion, having 30 mg/l dissolved CO2 is rare and having CO2 mist from injection is totally unnatural. This is why high tech tank can grow many stem and carpet plants, but not Walstad.

(4) Nutrient levels: The nutrient levels we see in glass boxes, even in Walstad tanks, are eutrophic, and in EI tanks, extremely eutrophic based on ecological standards. Yet, both EI and Walstad tanks can achieve minimal algae if done right. Apparently, high nutrients alone won't trigger algae, something else do, which is not revealed in ecological studies.

(5) Different concerns: Ecologists are concerned for noxious algae that fouled up natural waters which include, in particular, floating, matting, and blue green algae. Aquarists don't want any algae and particularly BBA, GDA and GSA that grow on plants, glass, driftwood and rock. Ecologists are not concerned for the latter, but see them as indicators of healthy stream. Aquarists want is to grow healthy plants of all species without algae. Ecologists want to get rid of exotic species, and care less about growing them healthy without algae.
 
Hi all,
I use two products: Solufeed 13 Fe EDTA (13% Fe) and Solufeed TEMag, EDTA Fe, Mg & a shopping list of trace transition metals.
That should cover any micro-nutrient deficiencies.
My understanding is GpII elements will displace transition metal elements from EDTA
I'm not sure, I think ferric iron (Fe+++) is the most strongly bound ion. I got that from the <"University of Bristol MOM page on EDTA">, it says
The unusual property of EDTA is its ability to chelate or complex metal ions in 1:1 metal-to-EDTA complexes. The fully deprotonated form (all acidic hydrogens removed) of EDTA binds to the metal ion. The equilibrium or formation constants for most metals, especially the transition metals, are very large, hence the reactions are shifted to the complex. Many of the reactions are pH dependent, especially the weaker forming complexes with Ca+2 or Mg+2......The structure of a classical complex of Fe+3 with EDTA is shown below. This is EDTA acting as a hexadentate ligand or all six sites on the ETDA bind to the metal ion.
EDTA is fine in acid to neutral waters but not in marine tanks with their higher pH's, hence other agents.
That is definitely right, as the pH rises EDTA is less effective. I use rain-water in the tanks and FeEDTA, but in harder water you would need another chelator. <"Solufeed"> are a company that specialise in soluble fertilisers for the commercial market, so they are always a good source for nutrients if you don't mind buying industrial amounts.

cheers Darrel
 

Interesting read. While pike are tolerant of nutrient rich waters, as ambush predators they require good stands of macrophytes to hide in. Once water has become too turbid to support such growth, the numbers of pike will fall and trash fish numbers will grow to the point that the population of small crustacea will be reduced and the shift to phytoplankton will be dominant. The absence of pike often result in high populations of stunted fish, especially roach and perch, the latter have to be large before they become effective fish predators. European waters benefit from zander which are pursuit predators and can help slow or perhaps help reverse the shift to phytoplankton domination. They are also far better eating than pike!
 
Hi all,
Once water has become too turbid to support such growth, the numbers of pike will fall and trash fish numbers will grow to the point that the population of small crustacea will be reduced and the shift to phytoplankton will be dominant.
It would definitely help if lakes and rivers had more structure (meanders and sunken trees etc) to provide cover for larger fish, and healthy populations of fish eating birds, otters etc. <"Re-introducing the Beaver"> (Castor fiber) would be a start, but none of these things are very popular with angling clubs or land-owners.

I think it is unlikely that many of the <"eutrophic water bodies will ever revert"> to a macrophyte dominated state, mainly because of the phosphate loading.

The estimate is that the phosphate reserve would take <"1000 years to decline to background"> (pre-industrial) levels, and that we are still adding about <"5kg per hectare per annum in the UK">.

Phos.jpg

Our best hope is that <"global phosphate shortages"> make phosphate stripping economically viable.

cheers Darrel
 
Last edited:
but none of these things are very popular with angling clubs or land-owners.
Very much depends on the land-owner or fishing rights owner. Some of the best rivers reaches that I have surveyed had been carefully managed by riparian owners to enhance fluvial diversity and aquatic plant communities and hence fishing. English water courses are very strange beasts and can vary from one 500m reach to the next 500m reach, almost beyond recognition.

I take on board that over straightening and flood embankment work, both late 1930's and late 1940-50's were heavy handed but there was a nation to feed. With more modern setback flood embankments, typically four to five summer flow channel widths wide there is space for meanders/and or side berms to be reintroduced. These would be drowned during high winter flows and would have little effect on flood management. Wide headlands between tilled land and a water course are of value, there are land owners and land owners. Can but dream.

Our Forest of Dean otters had to be removed, they were infected before introduction. I would have thought more care would have been taken. Naturally occurring debris dams have been recorded by the E. A. ever since their introduction of RHS's in 2003.


phosphate reserve
Are these phosphate levels biologically available or do they include total phosphates. cf BOD's and COD's in the conundrum of a drop of heavy lubricating oil in a bucket of water and dissolved oxygen in said bucket of water.
 
Hi all,
Our Forest of Dean otters had to be removed,
Beavers?
Wide headlands between tilled land and a water course are of value, there are land owners and land owners. Can but dream.
Are these phosphate levels biologically available or do they include total phosphates.
That would be the total phosphate, it is largely getting into water courses bound to soil particles. In my experience thi is particularly from Maize and Potato fields, because these tend to be in river valleys and have a long period where they don't have any vegetation cover.

I think the current research indicates that, in the long run, most of the phosphate will eventually become available. BOD is a much more sensitive tool than COD for less polluted waters, but you really need a biotic index as well.

cheers Darrel
 
Oh bugger! I didn't even remember about this thread till today..... looks like you guys have bee having good discussion.

For the record, my family did leave..... in the end.

Will catch up with this later.
 
Back
Top