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Relapse tank

Joined
30 Jan 2019
Messages
50
Location
Norway
Well I guess I should write something about my tank, so here it goes.
About ten years ago I had a bad case of multiple tank syndrome. I did a lot of different things and had at one time 5 tanks in my living room. I had a big tank of African predators, breeding guppys ,Apistos, an artemia hatchery on my kitchen counter and a nice planted tank. The plants was perhaps the thing that I liked best. And I went the whole way from a nutrafin yeast kit, multiple bottle yeast, to pressurised co2 and pmdd ferts.
When I then moved from that house I kind of quit the hobby for a few years. I sold all except one tank (kept filter, lights, co2 equipment and ferts)
Fast forward ten years: I got rid of a sentral heating oil burner furnace in the basement and all of a sudden I had I spare room with plumbing ready.
So I did a quick renovating. Some minor fix, paint and a wood stove. Dug out the old 200liter akvastabil framed and started to work on the hardscape I originally had in mind for this tank.
I bought this used and put in a new front and bottom glass. The wood is several pieces carved to fit and held in place by plexiglass pieces with glue.
IMG_20190130_21459.jpg

The background is a Cork sheet siliconed to the outside of the glass.
The wood in the corner is not actually what holds the gravel. I glued in place a perforated piece of plexiglass right behind it.
IMG_20190131_5119.jpg

This is getting a bit long so I have to write the rest later. Got some fish to feed before lights out.
 
When I started this tank it went realy well for a while and then I got just about every problem you can think of. Diatoms, bga, amonia spike, fuzzy thread alge and fish loss. But with some elbow grease and a new clean up crew I finally got the upper hand.
It seems the few guppys I had as a install and cycle fish reproduced too much and I ended up feeding more than the tank was ready for.
Then I ran out of ferts because I dosed lean and got algea.
Initially I wanted to keep this a budget project since I already had most of the hardware. And it still kind of is. Even though the gravel was kind of expensive to buy/ship and most of the hardware has been replaced.
In the bottom I have tropica soil capped with dennerle gravel, some jbl clay balls and iron tabs I had from way back.
IMG_20190204_15386.jpg

My co2 is a oxyturbo (cheap single stage bought used) reg, fe bottle and diy cerges reactor. The needle valve is a flow regulator that is totally wrong for this use. So it it turned almost all the way shut, and the flow is then regulated with the working pressure wheel on the bottle regulator. This works surprisingly well and gives a smooth and fine adjustable flow. I know this will only be stable as long as the pressure in the bottle is approximately the same, so this is the next upgrade I will have to make. But for now it is good enough and I got a friend in the f.e business who let me swap decommissioned tanks for free so right now It will have to do.

The filters is a eheim 2113 (390L/h) and a 4+ 350
The 2113 is actually a thermo modell but the heater is broken.
IMG_20190204_24886.jpg

Since the ambient temperature of the room can get a little low, my heater is apparently too small. It struggles to hold 25Celsius . It got better with plumbing insulation on the tubes. New heater on the list.
Lights is a aqua medic 4x39w t5ho( bought used but n.i.b).
I only run two tubes full 8 hours and a third for two hours mid day.
For fertz i started with my old stuff i had saved. Kno3, k2so4 and so on. The problem was that I had lost the recipe for the micro mix. It is a liquid mix and do not know what brand it is. I initially started dosing 1 drop for every 10l water and that proved WAY too much . I tried to go the EI rout and ended up massively overdosing micro mix. At least I think this is the problem. Things look better and grow better now after some extra wc and switch to csm+b, but it is still a little early to tell.
IMG_20190204_8339.jpg
IMG_20190204_35187.jpg

I experienced slow/stunted growth, a.r pink curled it's growth tips into a twisted distorted shape, h. Tripartita grew SO slow and with small distorted leafs with burnt edges, pale and veiny.
 
Hi all,
experienced slow/stunted growth, a.r pink curled it's growth tips into a twisted distorted shape, h. Tripartita grew SO slow and with small distorted leafs with burnt edges, pale and veiny.
It maybe an issue with the micro-mix, but pale chlorotic new leaves are caused by a problem with the uptake of one of the <"non-mobile plant nutrients"> and the two most likely of these are iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn).

Because the elements aren't mobile within the plant it will take a while for the plants to perk up (it will only be any new leaves that are greener).

cheers Darrel
 
the two most likely of these are iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn).

Cheers Darrel
I initially suspected mg or Fe and chased them both up and down through the ranges to the extreme. Some elements may inhibit Fe if excessive, right? If it was Mn then csm+b should help.
My liquid micro mix is 10+ years old. Do you think it matters?
 
Hi all,
If it was Mn then csm+b should help.
Should do, manganese (Mn) isn't very soluble, but plants only need a small amount.
Some elements may inhibit Fe if excessive, right?
Micro-element deficiencies can be to do with ratios, rather than absolute amounts. High levels of calcium (Ca++) can inhibit the uptake of magnesium (Mg++) and iron (FE++(+)), high pH will lead to the formation insoluble iron hydroxides, high phosphate (PO4---) levels to the formation of insoluble iron phosphates etc.

Because most ferric (Fe III) iron compounds are insoluble it is always the most likely nutrient to become unavailable.
My liquid micro mix is 10+ years old. Do you think it matters?
It depends a little bit on the conditions it has been stored in, the questions are:
  • does it have any precipitates in it?
  • has it been stored in the dark? and
  • is it in an opaque container?
cheers Darrel
 
It depends a little bit on the conditions it has been stored in, the questions are:
  • does it have any precipitates in it?
  • has it been stored in the dark? and
  • is it in an opaque container?
cheers Darrel
Both my micro mix and the liquid Fe has been stored dark.
They show no noticeable sludge at the bottom. Micro is dark orange, Fe is dark red.

My tap is very soft. Almost RO water. So i add a Gh booster that says 80% Calsium and 20%mg so that my water holds ~6*Gh
I also add k2co3 to reach ~2*kh and 20 ish ppm K.
I dose a little less than full EI levels for N and P. Kno3 and kh2po4
For MG I am currently adding right about 7-8ppm from mgso4 7h2o a week in addition to what my Gh booster ads. I tried to calculate what that is with the known values: 20% mg, in 8grams Gh booster added to 80liters of water and it looks like I should not need any more, but I saw signs og Def and perling increased as I added more MG so I guess my math must be off somehow.

First fts after planting it.
IMG_20190206_15167.jpg

IMG_20190206_21578.jpg

I have some nice green rocks that I got from the Quarry where they are mined. Theese ones are flat on one side. The layout of the tank is a bit flat and feel I should somehow build it more vertical on the left-side and incorporate green rock but I'm not sure how that would be done . Look like I should do a reshape/rescape once I get some more pieces of this puzzle figured out.
This is the latest fts
IMG_20190206_17941.jpg
 
Hi
Before U jump on the ferts.How is your flow arround the tank.I see spraybar on right and another in back left.Have U thought about putting them both on back of tank.It is possible atm to get dead spots as the flows of the filters are a bit contradicting each other
Latest pic looks good btw.
Regards Konsa
 
Flow is not a problem.The Only calm area is up on the shelf to the right, but once the new spraybar gets here I am going to move them to reverse the flow, open the valve on the 4+ completely (I have it choked a bit now) and remove the old filter. Maybe some corser sponge for the prefilter and definitely shorten the hoses.
The wood won't let me run a long spraybar from the right without removing it and cut out some from the back to let a long spraybar get behind and past.
In the latest picture the a.r pink has just been cut back and replanted hiding behind the Nymphoides hydrophylla Taiwan which is getting a bit out of control. The moss has overtaken the wood and also needs trimming.
Monte Carlo in front is finally growing full sized leafs again. It Looked like h.c Cuba for a while.
I just love the Nymphoides. So fragile and delicate leafs.
There are also two types of floating plants in the tank. One of them came with another plant as a stowaway and I am not sure what it is.
They require constant thinning BTW.
 
Hi all,Should be all right.

I'm not sure I know what the answer is. Have you tried reducing the amount of dGH buffer?

cheers Darrel
I could try to reduce it. Maybe half. I liked the idea of keeping that parameter stable.
After a bunch of extra wc and half dose csm+b for over a week I am now trying out full dose csm+b. What I mean by full dose is the amount the rotala calculator says it takes to add 0.2ppm Fe.
I am going to give this a week and see how the plants respond.

Water sprangles and dwarf water lettuce
IMG_20190209_8511.jpg
 
Hi all,
After a bunch of extra wc and half dose csm+b for over a week I am now trying out full dose csm+b. What I mean by full dose is the amount the rotala calculator says it takes to add 0.2ppm Fe. I am going to give this a week and see how the plants respond. Water sprangles and dwarf water lettuce
They are the ones, Pistia stratiotes and Salvinia "auriculata", both look OK.

They actually look like they might be a bit short of light and/or nitrogen (N) or potassium (K), but as you are adding the nitrogen and potassium at quite high levels that looks unlikely, and the underwater plants look fine, so that suggests that light isn't an issue. Have a look at page 3. of <"What's wrong with my Chilli....." > for some images of Salvinia under different light and fertiliser regimes.

If you have magnesium sulphate (MgSO4.H2O) as a separate salt (you can buy it as "Epsom Salts"), you could try adding a bit more magnesium and a bit less calcium in the dGH buffer, but I don't really know what the answer is.

cheers Darrel
 
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Hi all, They are the ones, Pistia stratiotes and Salvinia "auriculata", both look OK.

They actually look like they might be a bit short of light and/or nitrogen (N)

cheers Darrel
Thanks for that link.
I also thougt it might be low N because of the light green colour and started upping the dose and doubting my fertz: is my Kno3 actually potassium nitrate?
So I dosed much more fore a while and saw no improvement . And my no3 test indicated good levels ( I know not to trust them blindly).
Last week I added 7.5ppm MG in addition to what my tap (probably very little) and Gh booster adds. I hope this means I can cross out MG from the list of suspects.
I guess there is a lag in the system that means it will take some time to se improvement og signs of deficiency. And by the time you see it in the plants, the damage is already done and things will have to run its course.
The floaters are improving so at least I am doing something right .
 
You don't pour an alcoholic a drink, and you don't ask someone with mts if they would like a free tank.
Just before Christmas I a friend approached me and asked if I wanted a tank, for free. A retirement home near by wanted to get rid of a tank since no one took care of it and it was kind of a pita.
My initial reaction was HÆLL YEA. A free complete tank, bigger then the one I currently have, bow front and did I mention for free. Then after a few days It dawned on me. What did I just do?
Then, when I went to pick it up I saw what a terrible state it was in. It was covered in bba, DIRTY, Odd mix of fishes (Koi, two types of loaches, ancistrust, and a synodontis cat)scratched and so on. I have seen some dirty tanks, but this was by far the worst.
I took it home anyway and started cleaning the tank and equipment, but after I while I came to my senses.
Where was I supposed to place It? I would have to buy so much stuff to get it up and running in a acceptable state. And the scratches.....
I realised my mistake and put it up for sale way under market value. At least I would make a buck from cleaning this out.
Close call, relapse.
IMG_20190210_4372.jpg
 
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Since I last posted I have tried tweaking this and that.
I held back on phosphate to see if it would help things green up. It didn't. 1.3ppm (ish) weekly and the floaters started getting purple patches and holes.
IMG_20190226_53978.jpg

Under decent lights, good co2 and medium plant mass of mostly fast growing plants this was not enough Po. Lesson learned.
Except for this things are moving in the right direction.
The switch to csm+b must have done good, because things are looking way better.

H.tripartita look a little greener, have bigger and better shaped leafs and no brown edges anymore.
Vallisneria is finally growing long.
Ceratopteris thalictroides also grow faster.
And the cryptocoryne undulata broad leaf is reaching Al the way to the surface .
I had to trim Nymphoides hydrophylla and gave away a big bunch.

Right about the time I changed kh buffer from sodium karbonate ( I think that's what it's called. The stuff for baking) to k2co3 my staurogyne repens changed a little. It started putting on more vertical growth and the leafs got much smaller. Almost round. It looks totally different from the oblong leafs it used to have for tops. Weird little plant.
IMG_20190226_17309.jpg


My dosing regime is always changing, but right now I'm doing just about 3/4 EI levels, with a twist. I front load half of some ferts.
Right after wc i dose half the weekly amount of Kno3, MG and 1/3 of the weekly P.
The next day I take a break from dosing.
The idea is to not start the week with too low levels after wc and the following dosings is merely to keep things level through the week.
Right now I am dosing weekly:
*16ppm no3
*K is from k2co3 buffering of new water +Kno3= 30 ish ppm
*P is 2.4ppm
*MG is 5ppm +x amount from Gh+ booster
*Micro is 3/4 the amount it takes to dose 0,2ppm Fe from csm+b
*Fe a single drop of the liquid iron 3 times a week.

The new spraybar came and it allowed me to move it to the top right corner. I could only fit two sections of it, so I opened the holes a bit with a drill to compensate.
The filter intakes is now in the cryptocoryne on the left.
IMG_20190226_38791.jpg


And as always I am awaiting more upgrades.
 
Time for a update...
The next upgrade is on the way and include some big names. Swagelok, Cole parmer and clippard.
I got tired of guessing what the co2 was doing, since I had no bubble counter. And I almost gassed the fish when fiddling with it. The solution seemed easy enough. I found all the major pieces of this puzzle used online and started buying the different connections and cupplings needed.
This turned out to be a nightmare of different thread types and sizes. And the fact that I bought a metering valve with vcr type connection complicated it even further.
This is my first time ever working with pressurised gas connections. It has literally been like trying to learn a new language.
In order of appearance as they say:
A used AGA (not that aga) welding regulator.
Clippard mouse solenoid.
Cole parmer flow meter.
Swagelok ss-4bmg-vcr
Cerges reactor.
IMG_20190330_25915.jpg

Cole parmer recommends setting up the valve for gas adjustment after the flow meter in setups with variable backpressure.
The flow meter is so sensitive that the undulating waterpressure in the reactor actually makes the float in this meter move up and down constantly.
So when the vcr connections and gaskets get here this will hopefully be a very consistent and easy adjustable settup.

I also got a pair of a. cacatuoides.
I initially wanted a. Agazizii but this was the first Apistos I have seen since I started tanking again.
Not great colour.
IMG_20190330_19276.jpg
 
This is my water change setup. On the opposite side of the room I have a drain in the floor, an old kitchen sink, a shower mixer and a 3 meter flexible hose with a spray gun handle.
IMG_20190330_15602.jpg

I can change 50% of the water in 30 min or less without hauling buckets of water. The only downside is that anything that is sucked up when siphoning is going right down the drain. This might be the reason why many amanos shrimps have vanished from my tank. I should probably try to do something about that. Some sort of bucket with a screen and.......hmmmm.
 
Hi
Get yourself one filter intake shrimp guard or put some coarse sponge over it and U will be sorted
Regards Konsa
 
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