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Round indoor pond project queries.

Last night I was laughing so much at the betta and discus dynamics, I got tears in my eyes. It is so funny.

When I came back home yesterday, both fish were eagerly waiting at the front next to each other to be fed. I thought, wow, they've become friends. Then I proceed to feed the discus first, on purpose, so the betta is hungry enough to scoop left overs. As I dropped food, all of a sudden the company of the betta wasn't so desirable so the discus shot for the betta. The betta jumps on top of a leaf hiding, the discus pushed the leaf up with its nose to get him off it...The betta ran away.

After that I did a water change and then stood looking at the fish. The discus was standing looking at me and I then see the betta ambushing him from behind, flared gills, eyes almost popping out of his sockets, really angry looking fish approaching the discus at full force and I thought....that's it, he'll attack the discus...but then thankfully for some reason he stopped as fast as he started just short of the discus tail. The discus never saw this one coming...

Then I decided to feed again and both fish lined up at the front. I started feeding the discus first again but this time the betta wasn't having any of that....He stood there next to the discus flaring all the time while I was dropping bits of food. He was in fact flaring at both my fingers and the discus and I as laughing aloud. He thought he's a big man, lol. Then as he figured that this sort of behavior wasn't getting him any food, he swam under the discus and very cheekily started stealing his food under his nose...really clever little fish :D

Apart from that, yesterday I saw some poop coming out from the discus, half stringy half black and he seemed to be in pain while passing it as he was pacing until it came out. But at least there's some food moving through his gut. I also tried daphnia yesterday but he wasn't interested. So back on blood worms, I figured that if I cut them in half he's able to swallow them. I also think that yesterday evening he had brightened up a notch as I was able to see the stress lines clearly where a couple of days ago he was almost black. I think he was once upon a time a yellow fish with blue on the fins. But to be honest, he is so poor looking still, its unreal that he's alive.

There he is as of yesterday:(
DiscusDay3.jpg
 
I don't know if you've seen them but tmc gamma foods have a mini bloodworm. I haven't used it for a few years but it was really good for small mouths.
 
I had some success with mysis shrimp this evening. So for now I'll alternate these with the blood worms.

There's been no change in the discus appearance, fins are still clamped, stress bars, the lot but he's living and eating...for now. I just saw him explore the tank a bit, slowly sort of but the tank is small so nothing much to explore. If the discus ever gets better, I'll have to think of alternative environment but for now the hopes are really low, considering his extremely bad state.

The betta claimed back the "feeding corner". He's persistently stayed there even while I feed the discus, so the discus stays a bit further back now. I gotta stretch my hand, lol. Unlike the discus, the betta is really perky and active and acts happy although there's quite the dose of meds inside. I think he's liking the flow of frozen foods a lot.

I'll keep the meds in for about 8 days then perhaps stop for a while, just clean water, and evaluate. I am thinking, if I see no improvement in a week or so, I'll have to try taking a scrape and see if I find something but he's so weak now, the stress of that may kill him, although whatever he's got is obviously killing him slowly...
 
Thanks. I don't even know why I took that fish on, something just made me do it. I see tons of sick fish in fish shops...

Yes, I can try other stuff. It crossed my mind to introduce something vegetable like but he needs tiny little pieces. Today I was pulling the heads of the mysis shrimp only, that's the max size he can take. He won't take any hard food either, no matter the size.
I am hoping that if he puts on some weight, he'll eventually be able to eat proper food. I have high quality pellets, and bunch of other stuff but he's picky now and can't swallow too much at a time. For now I am concentrated on making him eat as much as possible.
 
I get it, I really do. It will all work out, it sounds like you know what your doing. I was told by an old hand that fish will always eat strawberries when sick like dogs eat grass ? maybe so or just a tale.
cheers
 
Never heard about strawberries...I can try, what's stopping me :)

I am not as hopeful about it working out to be honest. It's just that in order for that fish to still be alive being in such a state, then even the stress of being moved in a plastic bag and all, which I didn't think it would survive, it must have a will to live, so all I can do is try to help a soul in need.
 
And you have the will to help.
Hope it works out for him, I'm sure you will let us know

I hope so too mate. Sure, I'll record the failure or success.

This evening the discus ate every bit without much spitting. I also saw him passing a poop, looked black but was still hanging.
And the best part is that he's developing a bit of a belly. He was as thin as crisp a few days ago so I think that's something at least.
The overall appearance is the same though, top fin is still clamped, stress bars, etc..However, I've had a good look and whatever I can see from the fins is intact, no fin rot or anything. Also, I can't see any external damage on the body.

I also noticed the betta tends to intimidate him at feeding time as he just won't go away from the feeding spot. They're like two dogs and I am in between, both going for the food. Eventually the discus gave up to the "boss" :lol: but not before he had quite a few bloodworms....If I forgot for a second that they're just fish I would have thought the discus stepped away when he was full and let the betta take his turn..;)
 
Thanks. I actually bought an Arum lily two weeks ago. It is currently in the tub that was supposed to house the discus and it has grown massively in this short amount of time. It looks like a smaller type of lily, lighter color and seems to love growing out of water. I still haven't received the new filter and the old run has not run since last Friday so now the tank isn't quite cycled and I can't risk it with a sick fish. The cherry shrimp in it seem fine somehow..living in still water and just plants to help.

I actually prefer the runt sometimes, they tend to have more character.

The discus is definitely not without a character :) It would have been easier if he was more impersonal rather than staring at me with his large eyes. He seems very observant and is constantly watching both me and the betta. I also think the two fish are getting used to each other and apart from feeding time, they get on fine.

I am starting to have doubts that I am torturing a fish beyond repair. I am sure majority of people would have culled it but same as the fish, I don't give up that easily. I am thinking that if he lived to get to that state, there's a will so who am I to question it. I know fish can die very quickly for a lot less stress and disease.

There's no easy way to catch a fresh sample of his poop but I am itching to microscope him....It just won't happen without catching the fish and it is not a good idea with an already stressed fish.

I am going to pass by the shop this evening and ask some questions. In fairness, all the other discus in their tank look good and they're not connected to the central system. The other discus are actually very large good looking fish. Also, there are a few other fish in the same tank that are in good order. I just never asked about the sick discus back history as I didn't want to play the blame game. They've been very nice to me over the years and do their best, one of the few fish shops that survived the crisis. The sick discus may have been from a previous batch of discus. I am surprised that the shop just left the fish live despite its state...I don't even know what age it is about....
 
The arum,calla lily is the 1 in my sig.

Your fish and peace lily remind me of my pot of lily's. I bought the peace lily as a gift for my mother in law, it was 1 plant with a single flower, her skills at looking after any indoor plant were zero, 2 years later i saw the poor plant kind of shriveled and 1 leaf dropped over, needless to say i rescued it and still have it 24 years on. its grown a bit.
 
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Well, not so good news today.

The discus was sulking all day staying on one spot and refusing the food in the morning.

I decided to take the deworming meds out and did a very large water change. He stood on one spot during the entire process which frankly took me hours using the bucket method as I don't want to use my python...Good exercise I am telling ya:) But the fish is obviously stressed.

So I am worried of course....not that I expected miracles...

I spoke to the shop owner today after work. He said they had had the discus for 3 weeks and he came in sick with the rest of the discus looking good. I've seen them myself and they do look good... They treated all discus as a preventative with a round of Esha hexamita and internal bacterial just in case. This guy is the only one that did not take to it but he said that if I've seen the sick discus poop black "I've turned him around", presuming he pooped white stringy poop, so he was sounding hopeful..

My treatment was with flubendazole so between the shop and myself, we've sort of covered both protozoa and worms and some bacterial, although I don't quite think myself the issue has ever been bacterial but bacteria is very often secondary to a heavy parasitic infection. I think he's a fish that was overwhelmed by either worms of protozoa and was left to slowly starve to death. From here on I think it's up to himself and it depends on the organ damage done so far.

While I was in the shop, I also reluctantly grabbed frozen beefheart balance that also contains vitamins,spinach, etc..I know long term beef heart gives discus fatty liver but right now I want to try anything he's willing to gobble and that can put some weight on him and it was also the advise by the owner.

So to make me feel good spending hours on him this week, and both the discus and myself sulking today,everyone for their own reasons, he actually just took a few bits of the beef heart I bought, not much but it is at least something as he hadn't eaten all day....
 
I actually forgot to say the most important part of me removing the deworming meds..... I've decided to up the temps up to 32-34C to kill possible protozoa as what they used in the fish shop may not be good enough, plus force the discus to eat more. So that's a risk I am taking, considering the betta, but at least he can breathe if the oxygen levels dip down....but I am yet to find out if he can cope with those temps...although I sort of expect him to be able to.
 
Temperature now is nearly 33C, max on my Chinese heater... Both fish are taking it well enough, including the betta.
There's no change in stress level of the discus, he's as stressed as always, lol.

He just took a few bits of "cow" food, still picking on it not so eagerly but it is softer food so it seems easier for him to swallow. It is definitely his favourite food so far. He actually refused to take on any mysis shrimp after the first attempt. He'll only eat the bloodworms and the beafheart.

I am going to have to keep the temperature up for 4-5 days. If there's any protozoa infestations lurking that should kill them. However, my previous experience with high temperature was limited to a clown loach who was ravenously hungry at around 31.5C when treated for ich.

I hope I don't stress the betta unnecessary but he seems ok, swimming around as always. He does not like the discus food though and a good anti-parasite treatment will do him good too. He looks good for the experience.I also think the fish do like each other now and are not so hostile or afraid of each other anymore.

It will be a bit difficult with the water change tonight I guess. I'll just use the same thermometer.
 
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