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Sodium and plants

Me again!

Rather than editing my post above (#20), I really would like to resurrect this thread even though it was started over four years ago (by GlassWalker). The thread focused on potassium but the OP's question concerned sodium. There appears to be some uncertainty about sodium in planted tanks - both for plants and fish. Seachem has the following to say about their Equilibrium product geared towards RO/DI water remineralization:

"Unlike competing products, Equilibrium™ contains NO SODIUM CHLORIDE. Both sodium and chloride are not rapidly depleted elements in a planted aquarium, and, in the case of chloride, can do more harm than good. Competitors’ products generally contain primarily sodium chloride (because it is inexpensive), which will raise the electrolyte levels for fish, but can be detrimental to plant growth. In addition, sodium is not a contributing cation to GH levels. Equilibrium™ contains only calcium, magnesium, and potassium salts, which aid in fish metabolism, but are also highly beneficial to plant growth".

Would anyone care to comment?

JPC
 
It’s one of the reasons I use Equilibrium (erratically I must confess)

There’s no doubt that NaCl is damaging to aquatic plants, though some are much more tolerant than others, eg, Anubias and some Vallisneria sp. will tolerate estuary saline tanks (though I’ve seen few examples when the plants thrive as they might in non-salt scapes)
 
Hi all,
I note that sodium in my tap water last year ranged from 19.0 - 37.6 mg/l
You get a bit of sodium naturally in water from limestone aquifers, evaporite deposits, volcanic deposits etc., but if you have a supply with some surface water in it you can get a pulse of sodium from salt (NaCl) based road de-icers in the winter.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi Folks,

I got some more information from Seachem as follows:

[1] "Sodium chloride tends to dehydrate the leaves of the plant which can result in yellowing or necrosis. Excess sodium can also interfere with potassium uptake, which is why we recommend avoiding sodium chloride based products when keeping a planted aquarium!

Here's a helpful study that was conducted about general plant biology and the plant response to Na+, CL- and NaCL:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2955754/"

[2] "The tolerance of plants for sodium/ sodium chloride varies widely. On the low end, plants can start to show negative symptoms with around 10 mg/L of sodium chloride present, while other plants can tolerate up to 1000 mg/L. I would say as a general rule, anywhere above about 100 mg/L would be considered "elevated levels"

[3] "The sodium ion becomes a problem at a higher concentration than sodium chloride. If someone is continuously using sodium bicarbonate to buffer the water, and only rarely changing the water, then sodium can build up to detrimental levels, but under normal circumstances, sodium bicarbonate can be used as a buffer in planted tanks without issue".

I find the above information useful. I hope it's also useful to other UKAPS users.

JPC
 
Hi all,
I got some more information from Seachem as follows:
That looks a reasonable reply.
2] "The tolerance of plants for sodium/ sodium chloride varies widely.On the low end, plants can start to show negative symptoms with around 10 mg/L of sodium chloride present, while other plants can tolerate up to 1000 mg/L. I would say as a general rule, anywhere above about 100 mg/L would be considered "elevated levels"
That would be the real heart of it for me, we aren't going to know for a lot of plants what their NaCl tolerance is, because there won't be any published data for them.

You can make some educated guesses, based upon the tolerances of terrestrial crop plants. Some crop plants are really intolerant of any salt in their irrigation water, there are figures for the sensitive plants like Vaccinium spp. (Blueberries - V. angustifolium/V. corymbosum & Cranberry V. macrocarpon) and for ornamentals like Anthurium, Orchids, Bromeliads, Gesnerids and Begonia spp.

I'd be pretty confident plants from harder water are more likely to be sodium (Na+), and salt (NaCl), tolerant than those from soft water. Lake Tanganyika is sodium rich (as well as being very hard), so <"any of the plants that grow in it"> must be sodium tolerant.
[3] "The sodium ion becomes a problem at a higher concentration than sodium chloride. If someone is continuously using sodium bicarbonate to buffer the water, and only rarely changing the water, then sodium can build up to detrimental levels, but under normal circumstances, sodium bicarbonate can be used as a buffer in planted tanks without issue".
I'm not sure about that one, I'd definitely avoid NaHCO3 as a buffer unless I kept a planted tank with <"Lake Tanganyika"> fish.

It could be a conductivity effect (Na+ and Cl- are both highly conducting ions), but I wouldn't expect that to be particularly marked compared to other sodium compounds.

All sodium compounds are soluble, so when you put them into water the sodium will go into solution as Na+ ions, and every Na+ ion is the same as every other Na+ ion, whether it came from NaCl (Na+ & Cl-) or sodium bicarbonate NaHCO3 (Na+ & HCO3-).

cheers Darrel
 
I'd definitely avoid NaHCO3 as a buffer unless I kept a planted tank with <"Lake Tanganyika"> fish.

cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel,

Many thanks, as always, for your feedback.

I have picked out your statement above. What would you use instead of NaHCO3? Would KHCO3 be a better choice? Is it readily available?

JPC
 
Hi all,
What would you use instead of NaHCO3? Would KHCO3 be a better choice? Is it readily available?
Yes, I would use potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3).

It is widely available as "food grade" for auction sites etc. I had a quick look on amazon and a kilogram was about £8.
adding1.8g KHCO3 to 25 litres of water adds 2 dKH (from <"James' Planted Tank">).

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,Yes, I would use potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3).

It is widely available as "food grade" for auction sites etc. I had a quick look on amazon and a kilogram was about £8.

cheers Darrel

Thanks a lot, Darrell.

I'll look for a much smaller quantity as I don't think I'll get through a kilogram of the stuff - not in this lifetime, anyway!

JPC
 
There are no negative effects of high potassium.
I routinely dose Potassium at values exceeding 100ppm K+ so it's a pointless waste of time worrying about K+ toxicity.
Here is a tank dosed at approximately 130ppm K+
If people want to worry then they always choose to worry about CO2 above everything else.
View attachment 14386

On the other hand, it should not be too much of a problem using Sodium Bicarbonate to adjust alkalinity, but it depends on the plants. The range is vast. Florida lakes, for example have Na++ concentrations from about 10ppm inland to over 1000ppm in areas near the coast, so there is some adaptability. Other plants originating from areas where there is no coast or saline source may not be as adaptable. Generally it's best to avoid using water from a water softener which uses salt as these will have very high Sodium concentrations.

Cheers,
It is used here RO or tap water?
 
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