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Dosing hydrogen peroxide H2O2 with dosing pumps and diffuser?

You raise some interesting points as always Darrel.

I hope it's not going too far OT, but I find 'Heavily planted' hard to clearly define. The image of Tim's tank you posted above, isn't what I'd call heavily planted per se, that's just overgrown in that image lol (hopefully Tim won't mind me saying that) - 'Planted' to me suggests some intent as to the quantity and position of the plant mass. Purely out of interest, would you still define that scape as heavily planted once in its manicured form?:

29738848605_d9106093fc_c-jpg.jpg


I ask the question because I can't make my own mind up. On the one hand I think 'heavily planted' usually means the vast majority of the substrate is covered with plants, on the other hand though it makes me wonder whether, for example, Igwami style scapes, can be defined as 'heavily planted' or not?

Amazing_Iwagumi_Tank_Images.jpg


Coming back on topic then, at what level are we happy that the planting (or plant mass) is heavy enough to optimise the level of DO naturally? It bugs me that I can't accurately measure DO myself and actualy test empirically - maybe I will stump up for a DO meter one day.

For the Twinstars and Oxydators, personally I feel if they help to optimise the DO content of an aquarium, and have no negative side effects, they can be of benefit. Sure, they are not essential, and there are many many good tanks out there that have never used them. But I do believe optimised levels of DO are good for fish, good for minimising algal growth, and good for general tank health, and for me personally, I'm not convinced I can get sufficient surface agitation and/or plant photosynthesis to keep DO at optimum levels 24/7.

For me personally I like to 'check box' things, and having as few things to worry about with my tank as possible. EI with an auto-doser takes care of ferts, and allows me to tick that box that and not worry about the nutrient side of things too much. CO2 injection allows me to check the 'carbon' box and not have to worry unduly about insufficient levels. My auto-water changer ensures there is regular removal of organics in the water column and fresh water in the tank, so I can tick that box and not have to worry about that.

So the the Twinstar/Oxydator for me is another check box exercise that ensures there is plenty of DO around the tank at all times, and so it is another thing I can tick the box for and not have to worry about it.

A lot of people here and other planted tank forums think that Twinstars/Oxydators are snake oil, I don't think so, specially after using a Chihiros for more than a year, I can say that maybe not everybody needs them but for me has become a check as you have mentioned above.

Since nobody seems to be dosing H2O2 with a dosing pump, probably I'm gonna be one of the few/first to do it. I just need to know how much and how ofter to release the H2O2 in the tank.

By the way H2O2 food grade means water plus H2O2 right, nothing else?
 
A lot of people here and other planted tank forums think that Twinstars/Oxydators are snake oil, I don't think so, specially after using a Chihiros for more than a year, I can say that maybe not everybody needs them but for me has become a check as you have mentioned above.

Since nobody seems to be dosing H2O2 with a dosing pump, probably I'm gonna be one of the few/first to do it. I just need to know how much and how ofter to release the H2O2 in the tank.

By the way H2O2 food grade means water plus H2O2 right, nothing else?

I don't think they are really snake oil either as such. One of my other hobbies is hi-fi - check that out if you really want to see physics defying snake oil! I don't think the companies that sell them do themselves any favours with their marketing claims though - they would do themselves much less disservice if they clearly stated what the devices did and how it did it, and produced empirical data on the direct effects they have.

As for dosing H202 directly to your tank, I think you are taking a big risk. If you think about how much a Sochting Oxydator doses into a tank. The Mini I think takes around 30ml for lets say a 60 litre tank, and doses that over around two weeks (I'm very roughly estimating here) - that's 0.036ml per day, dosed gradually over a a 24 hour period.

I don't know your tank size, but even if you have a larger tank, of say, 300 litres, that's still only 0.216ml per day spread over 24 hours. I don't think you'll find an auto-doser accurate enough to enable you to do that? There is also always the potential risk of electrical failure and overdosing.
 
I don't know your tank size, but even if you have a larger tank, of say, 300 litres, that's still only 0.216ml per day spread over 24 hours. I don't think you'll find an auto-doser accurate enough to enable you to do that? There is also always the potential risk of electrical failure and overdosing.
Below is a link to Williamson peristaltic pumps, which I use for macro, micro and liquid carbon dosing.
https://www.williamson-shop.co.uk/100-series-with-ac-powered-motors-3274-p.asp

The smallest model 100-008-230-008/4 is less than 1ml per minute dosing. Looking at data sheet 0.8mm silicone is 0.025ml per rev, @ 8prm -> 0.2ml per minute.
100 = Silicone tubing
008 = 8 rpm
230 = 230V
008 = 0.8mm tubing
/4 = 4 rollers (so no one way valve needed).

Just need to check silicone tubing (as opposed to Viton or Norprene) is suitable for H2O2.
 
Below is a link to Williamson peristaltic pumps, which I use for macro, micro and liquid carbon dosing.
https://www.williamson-shop.co.uk/100-series-with-ac-powered-motors-3274-p.asp

The smallest model 100-008-230-008/4 is less than 1ml per minute dosing. Looking at data sheet 0.8mm silicone is 0.025ml per rev, @ 8prm -> 0.2ml per minute.
100 = Silicone tubing
008 = 8 rpm
230 = 230V
008 = 0.8mm tubing
/4 = 4 rollers (so no one way valve needed).

Just need to check silicone tubing (as opposed to Viton or Norprene) is suitable for H2O2.

Thanks for the link Ian - Wow 0.025ml is a tiny dose. Does it need to a PLC to control it, or can it be used with a pre-made controller like the GHL Models? (https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/products/profilux-aquarium-controller/profilux-4/)
 
Since nobody seems to be dosing H2O2 with a dosing pump, probably I'm gonna be one of the few/first to do it.
Can you make journal of that? I'm really curios how it will go, especially with regards to the general bacteria activity and fertility of the fish/shrimps etc.
 
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Thanks for the link Ian - Wow 0.025ml is a tiny dose. Does it need to a PLC to control it, or can it be used with a pre-made controller like the GHL Models? (https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/products/profilux-aquarium-controller/profilux-4/)
Just switch it via a standard mains timer for one minute in 24 hours and you will get 0.2ml plopped in the tank.

Other idea is dilute your H2O2 solution say 4 to one with distilled/RO water and dose this amount 4 times a day.
 
Just switch it via a standard mains timer for one minute in 24 hours and you will get 0.2ml plopped in the tank.

Other idea is dilute your H2O2 solution say 4 to one with distilled/RO water and dose this amount 4 times a day.

I don't think one dose would work. Dilution is certainly an idea, assuming it doesn't cause the H2O2 to start to break down. I still wouldn't be happy at four doses a day though.

I think the ideal would be to maintain the O2 introduction at a consistent level by dosing gradually every few minutes. Ideally (using the 300 litre tank example) you want the 0.216ml to be dosed evenly over 24 hours. Thats 8.5 rotations of your linked doser. Ideally then you'd want that doser to make 8.5 rotations evenly over 24 hours, based on whatever its minimum movement or on-time is?

Either the doser needs to be able to operate in single digit 'seconds' of 'on' time, or the solution needs to be heavily diluted I guess?
 
Either the doser needs to be able to operate in single digit 'seconds' of 'on' time, or the solution needs to be heavily diluted I guess?
Most standard mains timers are only accurate to 1 minute on time.

A PLC could be programmed with 7.5seconds on 8 times in 24hours no issue, but is not a cheap way to do it, unless PLC is part of a bigger tank control system.
 
Hi all,
Purely out of interest, would you still define that scape as heavily planted once in its manicured form?:
I probably would.
on the other hand though it makes me wonder whether, for example, Igwami style scapes, can be defined as 'heavily planted' or not?
In that case I probably wouldn't.

The way I look at it is how many handfuls of plants do you have? with floating or emergent plants counting as "handfuls x 2". It isn't very scientific, but it allows me to estimate the likely filtration capacity of the tank.
The image of Tim's tank you posted above, isn't what I'd call heavily planted per se, that's just overgrown in that image
That is how all of mine look eventually, I let the amount of light govern the plant mass, so even low light tanks eventually fill up with Cryptocoryne spp., Anubias, moss and ferns, it just takes a lot longer to get there.
For the Twinstars and Oxydators, personally I feel if they help to optimise the DO content of an aquarium, and have no negative side effects, they can be of benefit.
I would be a little more worried about the oxydator, purely because of the risk management aspect of using H2O2, for me the benefits are never going to out way the risks.

I also have <"structural leaf litter"> in the tanks, so again it would be counter-productive. If I kept LakeTanganyika <"Goby" Cichlids"> I might feel a little bit different.

cheers Darrel
 
dilute your H2O2 solution

In a dirt cheep model I once considered very dilute H2O2 added drip by drip via a burette, obviously not a uniform addition but lack of head room and the fiddle faff of it all it remained just a thought. Went for a 'dry' trickle filter to deal with easy BOD's. Still tight on head room but it runs 24/7, even when I forget about it. The things we exercise our minds on.
 
I don't think they are really snake oil either as such. One of my other hobbies is hi-fi - check that out if you really want to see physics defying snake oil! I don't think the companies that sell them do themselves any favours with their marketing claims though - they would do themselves much less disservice if they clearly stated what the devices did and how it did it, and produced empirical data on the direct effects they have.

As for dosing H202 directly to your tank, I think you are taking a big risk. If you think about how much a Sochting Oxydator doses into a tank. The Mini I think takes around 30ml for lets say a 60 litre tank, and doses that over around two weeks (I'm very roughly estimating here) - that's 0.036ml per day, dosed gradually over a a 24 hour period.

I don't know your tank size, but even if you have a larger tank, of say, 300 litres, that's still only 0.216ml per day spread over 24 hours. I don't think you'll find an auto-doser accurate enough to enable you to do that? There is also always the potential risk of electrical failure and overdosing.

My tank is about 71 gallons (270 Liters) (100cm W x 45cm D x 60 cm H) I've found some Stepper Peristaltic Pumps that can flow between 0-140 ml/min and other that can between 0-400ml/min so assuming a drop is 0.05ml and I have to dose about 0.200ml per day then I'm gonna need to dose about 4 drops daily, so in other words one drop every 6 hours, but they are using 6% H2O2 so if I use 3% I can use more drops.

Can you make journal of that? I'm really curios how it will go, especially with regards to the general bacteria activity and fertility of the fish/shrimps etc.

I will for sure
 
My tank is about 71 gallons (270 Liters) (100cm W x 45cm D x 60 cm H) I've found some Stepper Peristaltic Pumps that can flow between 0-140 ml/min and other that can between 0-400ml/min so assuming a drop is 0.05ml and I have to dose about 0.200ml per day then I'm gonna need to dose about 4 drops daily, so in other words one drop every 6 hours, but they are using 6% H2O2 so if I use 3% I can use more drops.

I'm no expert in any of this, but I still think four, or even 8 doses in a 24 hour period is too irregular, and will create peaks and troughs in the DO level rather than a consistent level. Darrel (@dw1305 ) or someone else in this thread will likely be able to provide a more educated and informed opinion on how quickly added DO will quickly return to pre-dosed levels following a dosing, but I would expect slower dosing (think every few minutes) to result in a more consistent and even DO level.

I think, if you are going to do this, you need to be able to evidence the effects empirically, which means stumping up for a DO meter and taking regular scheduled measurements in multiple positions in the tank, so you can verify that a) your dosing is actually increasing DO levels, and b) your dosing frequency is maintaining consistent DO levels. Your starting point in that case of course would be to establish what your baseline DO profile is for you tanks over several 24 hour periods.

I've thought about doing this myself for a while to see precisely what effect the likes of the Twinstar and the Oxydator have on DO, but I'm not sure what type of meter would be accurate enough (though an accuracy of 0.5ppm should be sufficient).

@dw1305 Would this level of meter be sufficient do you think? Amazon or can you recommend an alternative at a similar 'budget' level (I know some DO meters go into the £'000's)
 
I'm no expert in any of this, but I still think four, or even 8 doses in a 24 hour period is too irregular, and will create peaks and troughs in the DO level rather than a consistent level. Darrel (@dw1305 ) or someone else in this thread will likely be able to provide a more educated and informed opinion on how quickly added DO will quickly return to pre-dosed levels following a dosing, but I would expect slower dosing (think every few minutes) to result in a more consistent and even DO level.

I think, if you are going to do this, you need to be able to evidence the effects empirically, which means stumping up for a DO meter and taking regular scheduled measurements in multiple positions in the tank, so you can verify that a) your dosing is actually increasing DO levels, and b) your dosing frequency is maintaining consistent DO levels. Your starting point in that case of course would be to establish what your baseline DO profile is for you tanks over several 24 hour periods.

I've thought about doing this myself for a while to see precisely what effect the likes of the Twinstar and the Oxydator have on DO, but I'm not sure what type of meter would be accurate enough (though an accuracy of 0.5ppm should be sufficient).

@dw1305 Would this level of meter be sufficient do you think? Amazon or can you recommend an alternative at a similar 'budget' level (I know some DO meters go into the £'000's)

I was thinking to measure Dissolved Oxygen too, in a different way, https://www.atlas-scientific.com/dissolved-oxygen.html
but as you can see, is way to expensive.

Twinstar/Chihiros doesn't run 24/7, they run every few minutes, thanks to your suggestion and since I'm gonna use a stepper based peristaltic pump, I can use a step based instead of drops, so in other words for example if I need 6 steps for 1 drop then I could do one step every hour.

I know, the chihiros/twinstar do every 5 minutes or so, so the dosing should be every few minutes as you are suggesting, according to the stepper I was looking for, it can dose 140ml at 50 rpm so this stepper can do from 1 to 50 rpm so 1 rpm means 140ml / 50rpm = 2.8ml
 
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Hi guys,

Any feedback on this experiment?
I'm on the point to proceed same way for 500L aquariums without quite any plant...

Kind regards,
Charles
 
Hi all,
I was thinking to measure Dissolved Oxygen too, in a different way, Dissolved Oxygen Probes & Sensors | Atlas Scientific
but as you can see, is way to expensive.
Measuring dissolved gases is always difficult. Dissolved oxygen probes work pretty well (they still need calibrating before use) but <"both meter and probes are expensive">.
I'm on the point to proceed same way for 500L aquariums without quite any plant...
Welcome to UKAPS, if you don't have any / many plants you would be <"best using a trickle filter">. I would strongly recommend plants as an aid for water quality, <"plant / microbe biofiltration"> is much more efficient than "microbe only" nitrification, partially due to the <"net oxygen production of plants">.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi guys,

Any feedback on this experiment?
I'm on the point to proceed same way for 500L aquariums without quite any plant...

Kind regards,
Charles
Yes, I've found that dosing H2O2 directly to the tank wont oxygenate, you need some sort of activator to generate oxygen, at least as far as I found.

Hi all,

Measuring dissolved gases is always difficult. Dissolved oxygen probes work pretty well (they still need calibrating before use) but <"both meter and probes are expensive">.

Welcome to UKAPS, if you don't have any / many plants you would be <"best using a trickle filter">. I would strongly recommend plants as an aid for water quality, <"plant / microbe biofiltration"> is much more efficient than "microbe only" nitrification, partially due to the <"net oxygen production of plants">.

cheers Darrel

Yes, but they are expensive, so they are out of my wallet for now :(

And as I mentioned above, as far as I know, H2O2 wont oxygenate unless you apply some sort of activator.
 
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