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Why plants don't need Na and CL

tiger15

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I’m perplexed that Chloride, along with Sodium, are not one of 13 macro and micro nutrients plants need. Na and Cl are essential electrolytes in all animal, and I can’t understand why plants are lacking and have no need for them

Is it the reason why all herbivorous mammal eat mud to supplement NaCl that is lacking in plants? In a fishless tank with no source of NaCl from fish food, one can theoretically grow healthy plants with EI RO water, zero NaCl, right?
 
Think they do need them but there is probably enough in our tapwater to cover that
upload_2020-3-31_11-1-7-jpeg.jpg


Not my water report :oops: but

100ppm Cl.
60ppm Na.

So plenty am sure there is enough (@dw1305 will correct me :angelic: if wrong)
 
Not sure about Na for aquatic plants (Na is used for photosynthesis in C4 plants - corn, sugar cane etc. and as I'm aware it plays similar role to K) but Cl is absolutely necessary - it regulates osmotic pressure for example and it needs to be present in micro amounts.
 
Hi all,
So plenty am sure there is enough (@dw1305 will correct me :angelic: if wrong)
(Na is used for photosynthesis in C4 plants - corn, sugar cane etc. and as I'm aware it plays similar role to K)
No absolute sodium (Na) requirement, away from the plants @Witcher mentions and I don't think there are any aquatic C4 plants (Corn (Zea mays) is a C4 plant, <"but apparently doesn't have a sodium requirement">).

Some scientists have suggested that plants have a "functional need" for trace sodium levels, but because sodium is almost ubiquitous in the natural environment it is difficult to find situations where it isn't available.
Na and Cl are essential electrolytes in all animal
In plants the principal electrolyte role, played by Na+ ions in animals, is taken over by potassium (K+) ions. Plants are very good at excluding sodium ions, despite their similarity to potassium ions.

Chloride is definitely an essential nutrient, but you need less than 2ppm.

cheers Darrel
 
Some scientists have suggested that plants have a "functional need" for trace sodium levels, but because sodium is almost ubiquitous in the natural environment it is difficult to find situations where it isn't available.

Chloride is definitely an essential nutrient, but you need less than 2ppm.

cheers Darrel
Yes, it’s hard to be devoid of Na and CL in natural water, but possible in EI RO water in fishless setting.

What does functional need of Na mean and what are the symptoms of deficiency. 2 ppm Cl need is far greater than many micros, and why aren’t Na and Cl listed as essential plant nutrients.
 
good link :thumbup:, has Primary and secondary macro nutrients bit like first and second class proteins for mammals which are need for nutrition - makes sense

Hi @Zeus.

Thanks for the feedback. I wasn't sure if it would meet with UKAPS members' approval. Good to have got your vote.

JPC
 
Hi all,
What does functional need of Na mean and what are the symptoms of deficiency.
There aren't any symptoms as such, because plants don't have a sodium requirement, it isn't essential, plants can grow without any. Some plants may grow better with some added sodium, for some it won't make any difference.
2 ppm Cl need is far greater than many micros
The difference would be that every cation must have an anion to accompany it, and chlorides are both common and soluble.

You could design a mix without any salts containing chloride as their anion, but it is also a really common "contaminant" of a lot of non-chloride salts (like any evaporite minerals).

cheers Darrel
 
Hi Folks,

I have sometimes wondered why there doesn't appear to be a specific definition of what constitutes a macro, a micro or a trace element. But, I'm just a beginner in this arena. However, terminology is critically important. Our good friend, Wikipedia, lays things out like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition

JPC
Yes, there is variation in the definition of macro and micro nutrients from different sources. Most sources list 14 nutrients. Wikipedia list 17 with addition of H, Cl and Nickel. Nickel is not present in Seachem and other commercial micro formulation I’m aware of so is it an oversight. Na is nowhere to be found in any list but vital for animal, so why is there difference in plant and animal need as they share common ancestor.
 
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most tap water has some which should cover it
That's one of the reasons I always put a little bit of tap water (I generally keep plants in soft/very soft water coming from re-mineralised RO) or add a sea salt - that makes me assured that important part of Mendeleev table is always present in the water - at least in small quantities.
 
Seachem Flourish trace as some Ni, and most tap water has some which should cover it- worth adding if using RO water esp if not mixing with tap water
Nickel is not present in Flourish comprehensive, but in Flourish Trace. Most tap water has more nickel than in Flourish Trace, which is the most expensive tap water one can pay for.
 
Hi all,
Na is nowhere to be found in any list but vital for animal, so why is there difference in plant and animal need as they share common ancestor.
They share a common ancestor and "plants" evolved in the sea, but aren't any marine bryophytes or gymnosperms and very few ferns or angiosperms with adaptations to elevated salt levels.

The common ancestor of plants and animals ((<"Last Eukaryotic Common Ancestor>") "LECA" which is shared by all eukaryotes) diverged sometime in the Precambrian, well over 600 million years ago.

cheers Darrel
 
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