Guppy’s keep dying (help with diagnosis)

[alto]

Seachem seem to be quite cagey about giving information about their products, presumeably wanting to keep their secrets. Not surprisingly they recommend their own test kit to avoid any false positives.

In early years Seachem was much more transparent, I suspect that (like ADA) this was when it was a much smaller more personal company, though changing industry regulations have also likely played a part
As an example, Seachem medications are all based upon (independent) fish veterinary research studies that show efficacy on actual fish pathogens (and dosages follow effective treatment protocols, with no “assumptions of synergy of action” )

 

[alto]

I’ve just tested my tanks using some API test strips that I had lying around and they’re showing as 0 as well.
I know that strips aren't as accurate but it’s nice to check another test.

Unless the test strips have expired or stored/handled improperly, a decent test strip is very good indeed (unfortunately hobby branded versions don’t need to perform to an industry standard)

Care should always be taken when removing test strips, only touch the one you intend to use by the edges - or use clean dry tweezers to remove each strip and place on clean dry surface (I just use a piece of white paper towel) - immediately reclose container.
Then carry out testing

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

How are you measuring ammonia? Which test kit?

If you use Prime as your dechlorinator you <"will get a positive ammonia reading">, but it doesn't mean you have any ammonia. Seachem won't tell you what "Prime" contains, or how it works, but it is very likely to be similar in action to "Amquel", which has a patent. I agree with @alto, I don't think it is ammonia either. Guppies are horrible sickly things and they are likely to be carrying all sort of parasites and diseases.

In terms of plants, I'm a <"floating plant fan">. As well as their effect on water quality they also help with fry survival, which may not always be such a good thing with livebearers.

cheers Darrel

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi
Not a fan of "Prime".....smells a bit like rotten eggs!
hoggie

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

smells a bit like rotten eggs!

I think that is the hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-).

cheers Darrel

 

[jaypeecee]

What your Guppy does look like is pretty classic slow acting strain (chronic) Columnaris as presented in guppies (many Guppy farms and shipments have significant incidence)...There are no effective medications available at the hobbyist level, so good supportive care and treatment of secondary infections (eg, external parasites) is recommended
Even at the research level, Columnaris is very difficult to treat effectively, at most a reduction in mortality is observed (even after isolating, identifying strain, selecting the most effective in vitro agent etc)

Yes, indeed. The term 'shimmying' is just a reference to the fish's behaviour. According to Dr Peter Burgess*, just as @alto has outlined, Flexibacter columnaris is difficult to treat.

* Reference: "A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems". And, in this book, the author says that Columnaris is one of the implicated causes.

JPC

 

[macleod92]

Thanks for the responses everyone. So I just want to double check that I'm understanding things correctly.

Columnaris is very difficult to treat effectively

Is there no point in me trying to treat at all for this. For example following the advice in the article about dosing with a mix of API Furan-2 and Seachem KanaPlex?

https://fishlab.com/columnaris/

medication (what’s available?)

I've gone ahead and reduced the temp of my tank and will do daily water changes. I'm a bit unsure of which medication would be best. Is there anything that you could suggest that's available in the UK?


Overall I was wondering what the best course of action would be. I have a small tank lying around that I could turn into a quarantine setup. However I was unsure as to whether or not I should be separating and treating the specific fish that's sick, or given the fact that I've had a few deaths now (the rest look fine at the moment) that I should be keeping everyone together and treat the main tank.

Thanks again for all the help everyone!

 

[jaypeecee]

I think that is the hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-).

That would make sense. Please take a look at:

http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Water_conditioners

The Aquarium Wiki is one of my 'must have' resources.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @macleod92

Out of interest do you recommend a better testing kit?

For test kits, I always suggest those that include a reference standard for kit validation eg, Seachem MultiTest Ammonia

The Seachem MultiTest Ammonia would get my vote too. Although I have never used this specific test, I do use the Seachem Ammonia Alert, which uses the same principle. The latter continuously displays free ammonia, the toxic form. This is very handy as a quick glance at it (in the tank) will tell you instantly if there is free ammonia in the tank water. But, it is also advisable to know the total ammonia in the water (non-toxic ammonium + free ammonia). There is a case to be made for having both. Your choice will possibly be determined by your budget. Here they are:

https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php

https://www.seachem.com/multitest-ammonia.php

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Guppies are horrible sickly things and they are likely to be carrying all sort of parasites and diseases.

If guppies can be obtained from a trustworthy source, then, of course, it's a different story. A friend of mine used to breed/raise rare species of guppy and other livebearers. Some guppies are very beautiful in my opinion.

JPC

 

[Conort2]

If guppies can be obtained from a trustworthy source, then, of course, it's a different story. A friend of mine used to breed/raise rare species of guppy and other livebearers. Some guppies are very beautiful in my opinion.

JPC

This! If you can get them from a private breeder chances are you’ll have nice healthy fish. Otherwise I wouldn’t bother with them, they’re so inbred and mass produced in the Far East on farms and are of terrible quality. What used to be a hardy beginner fish is now a weak sickly fish that drops dead easily. If you can’t find a private breeder going forwards then endlers would be worth a try. Seem to be far less inbred and much hardier.

cheers

Conor

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

This! If you can get them from a private breeder chances are you’ll have nice healthy fish...... going forwards then endlers would be worth a try.

I wouldn't buy Rams or Guppies from a commercial outlet, only from a breeder. It is a sad state of affairs, but that is just where we are, and I've learnt my lesson.

I agree Endlers are a better option and you have more chance of getting them from a breeder at a reasonable price. Most people who breed Guppies breed "Show Guppies" which are expensive and they have their own problems.

cheers Darrel

 

[jaypeecee]

Unless the test strips have expired or stored/handled improperly, a decent test strip is very good indeed (unfortunately hobby branded versions don’t need to perform to an industry standard)

Hi @alto

Useful information there - thank you!

I currently use the Hach AquaChek Fe strips plus Industrial Test Systems (ITS) NO3/NO2 and ITS Cu strips. I am particularly interested when you say "unfortunately hobby branded versions don’t need to perform to an industry standard". Would you happen to have details of the relevant standard? Or, where I may find it.

JPC

 

[sparkyweasel]

I wouldn't buy Rams or Guppies from a commercial outlet, only from a breeder. It is a sad state of affairs, but that is just where we are, and I've learnt my lesson.

I agree with that, and would add Dwarf Gouramis to the list, which used to be one of my favourites.
A few years ago, when Asian farmed Rams were getting bad, the answer was to get German Rams. But now shops seems to just label all Rams as 'German' whatever their origin.

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi Folks,

With the help of my wife, I have successfully bred GBRs, Mikrogeophagus ramirezi. We had 41 beautiful fish - males and females - most of which I sold to Maidenhead Aquatics. It was such a rewarding experience but very time-consuming. It would have been nigh on impossible to have done this on my own. Feeding the tiny fry is a challenge but, if anyone wants to give it a try, just PM me for more details. BTW, the parents of these fish were of Czechoslovakian origin.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @macleod92

Apart from the side-to-side movement of the Guppy in your video clip, are there any other visible signs on the fish's body? Columnaris disease is responsible for what is known as Mouth Rot or Mouth Fungus (even though it's a bacterial infection). The signs to look for are "small off-white or grey lesions or marks concentrated on the head, fins, gills and mouth cavity" - according to Dr Peter Burgess in his book that I referenced previously in this thread.

JPC

 

[macleod92]

Thanks for all the above info everyone.

he signs to look for are "small off-white or grey lesions or marks concentrated on the head, fins, gills and mouth cavity

I've had a really good look and can't see anything obvious. Although it's possible that I'm just not correctly identifying the marks as he's a relatively pale fish anyway. Here is another video from a slightly better angle than the original. Can anyone see any obvious signs?



Thanks for the help!

 

[jaypeecee]

I've had a really good look and can't see anything obvious. Although it's possible that I'm just not correctly identifying the marks as he's a relatively pale fish anyway. Here is another video from a slightly better angle than the original. Can anyone see any obvious signs?

Hi @macleod92

OK, it would appear that there are four known strains of the disease itself! Please take a look at:

https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/columnaris-symptoms-and-treatment.263058/

The important bit is "The disease in the past has been called Saddleback Disease because often the afflicted fish will show a pale saddle like area across their dorsal fin onto their back". Take another look at your fish. Indeed, it does have the pale saddle, doesn't it? Why there was seemingly no mention of this in the book to which I previously referred, I don't know. So, it does look as if your guppy has succumbed to Columnaris. I have determined that eSHa 2000 may well be the best choice for your guppy. You can read more about this product here:

https://www.eshalabs.eu/europe/products/esha-2000supregsup.html

It's available from Amazon UK.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

JPC

 

[sparkyweasel]

Why there was seemingly no mention of this in the book to which I previously referred, I don't know.

That's a good book, but about twenty years old now, so the different strains may not have been identified at the time.

 

[jaypeecee]

That's a good book, but about twenty years old now, so the different strains may not have been identified at the time.

Hi @sparkyweasel

You may well be correct. I didn't realize that I'd had my copy for that long. I have the first publication, dated 1998! I think it's time that I updated it! And, yes, it is a very good reference book to have in the cupboard under your tank. Some of my mates at my local fish club know Peter Burgess but I've yet to meet him.

JPC