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Using a PH controller

JacksonL

Member
Joined
27 May 2015
Messages
120
I was going to post this is the dialling in CO2 thread, but didn’t want to take it further off topic!
I am wondering if those that use a PH controller could give a bit more information on their setups?
I am interested in:
What brand do you use?
How often do you calibrate? What is the process for calibrating your controller?
How long do the probes last?
What resolution does your controller read?
How do you administer the CO2? (ie diffuser or reactor?)
Does it ‘overshoot’ the target at all?

Thanks for any replies!
(@Sdogg @GreggZ )
 
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I was going to post this is the dialling in CO2 thread, but didn’t want to take it further off topic!
I am wondering if those that use a PH controller could give a bit more information on their setups?
I am interested in:
What brand do you use?
How often do you calibrate? What is the process for calibrating your controller?
How long do the probes last?
What resolution does your controller read?
How do you administer the CO2? (ie diffuser or reactor?)
Does it ‘overshoot’ the target at all?

Thanks for any replies!
(@Sdogg @GreggZ )
I have been using an American Pinpoint Marine unit for many years. It's a high quality unit with a BNC connected probe. The resolution goes down to 0.01 which is nice. I generally adjust in 0.05 increments.

I calibrate about once a month, and the unit is very rarely off by more than 0.02. Calibration is simple. Stick the probe in calibration solutions and adjust as needed. My last probe lasted about 3 years.

As to "overshooting" the target the answer is yes and no. The way the controller works is to shut off CO2 at a set pH, then turn it back on at a set pH.

So in my case my set point is 4.85. When the pH hits 4.85 the unit shuts off the CO2. Now it could drift a bit lower maybe down to 4.82 before it starts rising. But nothing to worry about. My high end set point is 4.95. So when the pH reaches 4.95 CO2 is turned back on. So basically I am at a 1.3 to 1.4 pH drop all day long via CO2 injection.

I hope that helps.
 
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Thanks, very helpful.
I think I am interested in giving one a try. Mostly because I love a gadget but also because it would remove one point of worry when I am away from the tank for a week or two.
 
The whole ordeal of doing a PH profile manually then adjusting accordingly, all the while using a drop checker to confirm etc etc blah blah blah - seems so imprecise and a chore to me. Doing a PH profile is generally accepted as the standard method of dialling in Co2. A controller is just a refinement of this process.

My UP controller was about £100, I like a gadget too, worth every penny. Having a constant live real time PH readout seems like such a simple thing, but having a number to go by is everything. You KNOW what is going on instantly. Without it, I struggled, I felt essentially blind, unless I stuck a PH pen in or I fancied guessing what shade of green my drop checker was.....

E.g
If I set target as 6.30
Controller will shut solenoid at 6.27 and reopen and 6.33
So easy and faultless so far. I've been using it about a year, still using original probe. Works well with my reactor, good Co2 and no fizzy water, fantastic.

I'm willing to bet my (our) Co2 control is far more precise than the mainstream YouTubers that don't use controllers. Gasp controversial. Their shotgun approach of slapping an in line diffuser on to a setup and watching for green just doesn't cut it for me.

I guess I'm a huge advocate for PH controllers lol
 
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I have an UP pH controller as well used it at first in my 500l tank and had no real issues with it. Then I changed over to dialling the CO2 in via needle valves and timers etc. I cant 100% remember why I change over, it was probably due to the horror stories where the controller would go cawonkas because of reading errors or whatnot and then gasing the whole tank, plus I was injecting CO2 at a very very high rate. Plus this was before a learnt about the cheapo needle valves most of us use, then we have the varying room [CO2] as well.

You guys have made some excellent points IMO and I'm rethinking the possible use of a pH controller again on my next CO2 injected tank (tanks presently all non CO2 injected as renovating house ATM)
 
Things you could take into consideration about aquariums and electricity and Ph meters/controllers.

An aquarium simply is a bucket of conductive water, the solids (salts) in this water determine its conductive capacity. When the waterbody is grounded it will conduct, when it's not grounded it will charge with electrons capacitively.

It requires electrical thus conductive equipment, such as pumps, heaters, light, optional feeders and or measure equipment. This equipment runs power 24/7 over coils and such back and forth from and to the electrical grid and it creates a magnetic force field, the device itself and the power cable has it. In simple terms, this forcefield is an electron flow over the atmosphere and your aquarium stands in a magnetic electron bubble. Therefore a capacitive and or conductive coupling between equipment and aquarium is unavoidable.

This actually also happens in your home installation, if for example there are several electrical cables in 1 tube in the wall and 2 cables run power and the others are switched off. Then there still is a conductive coupling between all cables because of the forcefield from the cables that run power. In some cases, people report LED lights that keep glowing faintly when actually switched off? This phenomenon can be is caused by such a conductive coupling from the cables in the wall. Look up both types of couplings to learn a bit more about how and why it establishes.

Back to the tank and its capacitive properties and the capacitive coupling when all equipment is switched on... As said it's a bucket of water in glass insulation and as long as the water is not grounded it can only charge till a certain point and only release this charge again over the atmosphere (moist conductive air). And these values are harmlessly tiny. This all changes when you ground the water, this you can do by sticking a finger in the water and touching something conductive such as a heater pipe from the house. In some cases, you can feel it. You can also take a multimeter and set it to measure (small) voltages, put the positive lead in the tank water and hold to negative lead to something grounded and you'll have a 99% chance you will measure a voltage. Reports of people measuring up to 60 volts from their aquarium can be found out there... :)

And as said, when you stop measuring and stop grounding the water then it just remains a charge the water holds and it goes nowhere. It only conducts physically when grounded.

Now the Ph controller is a voltage meter, it measures the difference between the fluid in the probe and the water to determine a value that is recalculated to a pH value on the display. And it only can do this when connected to the power grid, thus the Ph probe grounds the water. Depending on the conductive coupling capacity and the capacitive coupling capacity between other equipment and the water all this charge will leave the tank over the pH probe. And since the pH meter is a voltmeter this electricity flow can cause incorrect and fluctuating measurements. Then your pH controller renders rather useless and unpredictable. It doesn't need to be much, you can find reports of people complaining about Milwaukee controllers with a constantly rattling relay and solenoid. Simply because of the 0.1 pH threshold and a fluctuating measurement because of the electrical interference in between its set threshold value making it switch on and off constantly. This could happen suddenly when the heater switches on or off and the conductive coupling it causes alters.

Some Milwaukee controllers use a low reference voltage and could be more susceptible to interference than other brand controllers using a higher reference voltage, some brands such as Hanna equip their meters with a separate ground pin to circumvent these interferences and guarantee more stability. I've used the sensitive Milwaukee for quite some time that rattled now and then and also used the rock steady Hanna, but the Hanna I could feel measuring with my finger in the water.

Anyway, stable or not, that's not my point, the point is a permanently connected pH probe will ground your aquarium and make it conductive.

An old school rule of thumb was never to ground your aquarium water... Simply pull all the plugs of electrical equipment before you are thinking of sticking a finger in it. Not only for the latter but also and maybe even more for your fish's LLO function.

If we can measure it and in some cases even feel it, then what about the fish? This debate still holds a lot of controversies, which we yet don't fully understand. But there are reports of claims that electrical current flowing through the water can cause harm to fish but yet there is no real scientific proof of at what values it starts and ends. Well, it definitively ends at the high voltages that we know. But a constant long term irritation in the lower range is still beyond our grasp, we can't tell and the fish can't tell us. It's the lack of proof overshadowing the plausibility the trade uses to sell to you for your convenience.

I can only give an opinion, which is irrelevant at this point... :nailbiting:
 
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Things you should take into consideration about aquariums and electricity and Ph meters/controllers.

An aquarium simply is a bucket of conductive water, the solids (salts) in this water determine its conductive capacity. When the waterbody is grounded it will conduct, when it's not grounded it will charge with electrons capacitively.
How interesting, makes sense. But isn't our aquarium not a bit grounded by the wires we put in the water heaters and such.. As far as my understanding of electricity goes it also travels around the wires but you have to have an carrier to let it flow like a conductive material.
 
I use a JBL Proflora pH Touch, pretty much have done since Day 1 of filling. It's a great unit, I set it to the KH of the water (~1.0) and it works out what the pH needs to be ( pH 6.15), and then controls the pH via CO2 injection to within the hysteresis I set (+/- 0.1 pH Units). I use the needle valve on the regulator to control the rate of pH change. When the KH was 5, then I had more bubbles / min than I do now with the KH of 1.0, this is because the higher the KH the more it buffers the change in pH. I try and get the same rise and fall in pH over time, regardless of pH to avoid stressing the fish. The good thing is, now that I have stabilised my KH where I want it to be, I don't have to change the settings on the pH Touch or the regulator.

I use an inline homemade Cerges reactor, getting a few micro bubbles in the tank, but thats a good thing as it lets me know that the flow is reaching all parts of the tank.

Calibration is done using the supplied kit, and is automated, the unit tells you what to do, follow the instructions and it's job done ... It even nags you and goes into alarm mode if you go over your chosen calibration interval (28, 45 or 60 - not recommended, days).

Yeah, it's expensive, and new probes are not cheap, but it works, it's one less thing for me to think about, and I have a visual check of what the pH, and therefore the CO2 level is in the tank. The other plus point is, it's a great "Boys Toy" ... I came down this morning, and had a "WTF!" moment, "Why is the pH that high ( pH 6.48 ) ?" Turns out my CO2 cylinder is on it's last legs, so I swapped it out for a new 5Kg fire extinguisher.

To answer Marcel's point the JBL Proflora unit that I have comes with a double insulated power supply with only 2 pins, live and neutral, so in this case the pH controller is not earthing the tank.
 
But isn't our aquarium not a bit grounded by the wires we put in the water heaters and such..

Yes a tiny bit maybe, all are insulated, as said there actually is a % of grounding over the atmosphere on rainy days more than on the sunny dry days. This type of grounding is tiny and about neglectable, or should I say unavoidable, we can't do anything about it other than unplug it all. Neglectable by force... We don't know...

Physically grounding it with a rather high conductive material such as the available titanium ground pins and or a simple Ph probe that is connected to ground(negative lead) from the electrical grid makes it flow freely without any restrictions.

As said, the debate holds a lot of controversies because we yet do not really know how it affects fish... And since we don't you can find Aquarium ground pins in the trade advertising we should ground our aquariums for our safety. We don't have the proof thus F... the fish safety, we come first so let us use that to make some money and give you a titanium ground pin.

There is no murder without a dead body...

And as said, I can only give an opinion, which is irrelevant... Just make your own with whatever gives you peace. :)

And if you have a Ph controller then you know now how and why it could be incorrect and unreliable... Simply do not trust it as long you didn't eliminate all possible potential interfering sources.
 
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Another old school rule of thumb is written in the books, old-timer here at the forum can confirm, once was, never to switch on all lights at once, the sudden light flash may startle the fish... So we were advised to install different colours of tube lights, starting with a UV tube an dwait 30 minutes before switching on the yellows and reds. That was our old school gradual dim function back in the day.

And indeed when you switched on all lights at once you could see the fish get startled...

Nowadays in the LED era people use LED controllers you can find videos of guys creating Thunder lightning effects above their aquarium. LO and behold!! 0 people report fish being startled! They go on with their daily life as if nothing happened.

Refer this experience back to old school tube light installation with ballasts and starters and in many cases all situated under the hood. What is the next best-educated guess of what actually startled the fish back in the day? The sudden power surge over the ballast and tube starters? Or is Tube Light light so much more irritating than LED light?

I bet a month's wages on the power surge over the ballasts and starters 10 inches above the water surface... We didn't know back then because it was all we had so we blamed the light itself... Now we have LED that doesn't require heavy ballast and starters and see it actually ain't the light flash causing it.
 
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And as said, I can only give an opinion, which is irrelevant... Just make your own with whatever gives you peace. :)

And if you have a Ph controller then you know now how and why it could be incorrect and unreliable... Simply do not trust it as long you didn't eliminate all possible potential interfering sources.
I don't use a ph controller nor do I ground my tank. Most equipment I use on my tank doesn't even have a ground wire. Just found your post interesting to think about it..
 
I don't use a ph controller nor do I ground my tank. Most equipment I use on my tank doesn't even have a ground wire. Just found your post interesting to think about it..

I once did use them for a few years and experienced interference and erratic pH readings... So I started digging to find out how and why. Finding out was the reason why I stopped using them... :)
 
To answer Marcel's point the JBL Proflora unit that I have comes with a double insulated power supply with only 2 pins, live and neutral, so in this case the pH controller is not earthing the tank.

The (yellow-green) ground lead we have at home is a physical pin hit into the ground at the fuse box. The positive (brown) lead and the negative (Blue) lead go to the power companies control box somewhere in your neighbourhood/street where the Live is hooked to the power grid and the Neutral lead to a pin in the ground.

Big apartment buildings that actually have their own control box at the entrance door only have a 3 phase Live and a (yellow-green) ground coming in and in the building at fuse boxes, this ground is split into Ground and Neutral.

So both are actually the same... :) Thus a permanent measuring device hooked to the power plug is always grounded by the Neutral lead... That's why pH meters/controllers ground the stray voltage coming from other equipment leaving/flowing to the ground over the Neutral lead.

Some pH controllers go bonkers over it... Because it measures a voltage difference between its own life and neutral to determine the pH value. Now the stray voltage in the tank flows away over its neutral interfering with what it reads... And gives a wrong or erratic value...
 
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I once did use them for a few years and experienced interference and erratic pH readings... So I started digging to find out how and why. Finding out was the reason why I stopped using them... :)
While this is interesting myself and the dozens of people I know who use pH controllers would argue otherwise. I can tell you my American Pinpoint unit is rock steady. There are loads of other reasons your probe may have been off, but I seriously doubt it had anything at all to with your theory.

I can tell you in general that folks who use controllers love them and wouldn't be without them. I've communicated with enough of them over to years to be confident in that statement.

But again the biggest issue is fluctuating dKH. If your dKH is not stable, then a controller may not be for you.
 
While this is interesting myself and the dozens of people I know who use pH controllers would argue otherwise. I can tell you my American Pinpoint unit is rock steady. There are loads of other reasons your probe may have been off, but I seriously doubt it had anything at all to with your theory.

I can tell you in general that folks who use controllers love them and wouldn't be without them. I've communicated with enough of them over to years to be confident in that statement.

But again the biggest issue is fluctuating dKH. If your dKH is not stable, then a controller may not be for you.

:) As said I'm not into sharing my opinion or arguing with others on theirs and it's certainly not about party-pooping the pH controller enthusiast...

That a pH probe does ground the aquarium water is not a theory it's a 1+1=2 you can't get around. This also goes for quite a lot of pH controllers that are rather susceptible and unreliable this can be found all over the net. The cause is mainly only discussed in the Electronics DIY communities with members knowledgeable in electronics. As you can read in the below thread (one of many), an extra ground pin in the aquarium water resolved the faulty Ph reading because it gives unrestricted flow to the ground and minimze the ground flow over the probe. What flows to the ground is capacitive current that comes from other electrical devices.

So I'm also not saying there aren't any stable Ph controllers, I had them myself... :)

But they are still voltmeters and thus send a voltage into the tank water, they also function as a ground for the tank water and make the capacitive current flow out freely... And an electrical current flowing through the aquarium is not a natural thing and it might be not so nice for your fish... Since fish do rely on a number of Electro receptive organs to communicate, find food and get around their environment.

Whoever will argue otherwise, fine by me... I'm also not here to share my opinion on what one should or shouldn't do, everybody can make and control their own...
 
What about timers? I assume you all turn off the co2 injection overnight?
Do you put the timer at the controllers electrical plug (ie the controller itself shuts off overnight) or between the solenoid and the controller outlet (ie controller stays on overnight but the timer prevents it powering on the solenoid)?
 
What about timers? I assume you all turn off the co2 injection overnight?
I did think about this when setting mine up, but in the end just left it to do it's own thing. My light are on from 16:00 to 22:00, so I have plenty of opportunity during the day to check what the pH is doing "In the dark", and the answer is ... Not much! Certainly not enough to trigger the alarm function of the controller, which I have set to a =/- 0.2 pH units ... the controller having a hysteresis of 0.1.

If I did decide to put a timer on it, then I would go with option 2 as well ... This can always be tested by pulling the plug out of the solenoid to see if it really makes all that difference. ;)
 
Hi all,
With the usual disclaimer that I'm not a CO2 user and I never will be, but I do know a reasonable amount about pH measurement via my "day job".
Most cheap probes are not very accurate and they need to be replaced on a pretty regular basis. When you move up to something like the American Pinpoint Marine, you have a probe that rarely drifts and lasts for many years.
That would be <"worry straight away">. Most of the probes work by exchanging potassium (K+) ions from <"their internal supply"> for protons (H+) ions in solution. As they begin to run out of K+ ions (from the internal reservoir of KCl), they begin to drift, usually this doesn't matter (because you will pick it up), but if the pH probe is controlling CO2 injection? The results are potentially catastrophic.

cheers Darrel
 
What about timers? I assume you all turn off the co2 injection overnight?
That is what's advised and commonly done, something like switching on the CO² via timer about 1 or 2 hours before the lights come on depending on how fast you get to your desired pH level. And switch it off again an hour before the lights go out since it doesn't all gas out immediately.

Depending on the controller construction it is an easy thing... I had the Milwaukee that has its own DC12 volt power supply and a plug with a socket. Thus it requires 2 main sockets to operate.
41hVokWQcPL._AC_.jpg

Have the power supply constantly powered and the extra extension socket/plug for the solenoid should be plugged into a different socket on a timer switch.

I do also see controllers without a separate PSU that confuse me a bit, should get my hands on them to figure it out. Such as...
up-ph-controller-step1.jpg

Put the timer on E the controller will also be switched off... Put the timer on D then the timer will run on its battery power each time the relay from the controller switches off? Personally, I would steer away from such a design... But I actually don't know, never had one... But the looks of it the second one is not really designed to use with a timer without making strange curves.
 
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