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Ammannia Pedicatella 'Golden'

Under Lean dosing thread
Post# #103
It was already confirmed that this plant can be grown under higher dosing, especially when the GH is high, higher Fe/Micros can be dosed. but Marian doses for NPK are rather not that high, even though he uses Fe/Trace at bit higher levels along with GH of 5-7 range.

Sudipta growing them in non Co2:
His Non Co2 tank
if this plant truly needed very high co2, then it should totally fail to grow under Non Co2 tank, Sudpita tank with high lights, lean dosing, rich Substrate (NH4 based). Not only you don’t need high Co2, you also don’t need high nutrients in order to grow this plant under the high lights.

Tom Barr’s Garage Tank with Co2, No Liquid fertilizer Dosing, old aqua soil can be found here
in this case both Sudpia and Tom’s Ammania Golden both look like they are growing much better than what you usually see in most High Tech, high dosing, Co2 enriched tanks. And am not referring to thickness of the leaves or stem, but overall health of the plant. Where in rich co2 they will obtain thicker leaves and stems.

Plantnoobdude experimental tank can be found here
every time he made changes to the nutrients, weather the ratio or the nutrients levels, plant responded differently. His goal was to grow all these plants together under the same setting of parameters because there was a misconception that they cannot be grown together due to their nutrient or Co2 demand. some of those listed plants: ludwigia pantanal, rotala wallichii, ammannia pedicellata golden, tonina fluviatilis, Cuphea anagalloidea

Tom Barr is strong believer of Liebig’s Law and this is what he have to say about the “Ammania Golden” after chatting with Tom Barr, this is what I gathered from him:
Direct quote from him:
“The whole genus is found above the water line. Not even saturated soil but it grows there fine. Might about to find exceptions out in nature but not many. The Ammannia species do well in rich sediments. I don’t need to dose at all this even with old soil. 2 years or more old. Easy to grow. The flip side is full EI and lots of trimming. They are weeds. The Lythraceae family is mostly like this. Some can do great at absent water column ferts. More ferts means more work in many cases. Hence doing away with the CO2 gas as the next step. It grows, but it’s harder to get the nicer richer colors. I’ve used the plantex CMS tub for the last few years, and add the B myself. It’s not an ideal trace but it’s worked and had a long history. Cheap etc. these species can go months on end without any traces added to the water. I get a B little better color if I do add, but totally not needed. You can add A crassicaulis variety and the normal gracilius, the partae/ red Neasea and a couple of others to these observations. Both absent dosing and rich max dosing did well, but more work and trimming water changes etc. if you only have Ammannia or mostly, have Ada soil, no need to dose at all I’d argue. They do not care much about water changes either way. Both extremes seem fine and the plant quality was very high. KH was low, 2 or less dKH. The lower, the better. The genus also grows well at fairly low light. 25-35 umol.
Plants take some time to even out all their rubisco enzyme, generally a few weeks
So if the CO2 is rich, they do not need as much, maybe 80% less. If the tank is non CO2, then they need A LOT! 5-10x more. Takes time to make that and have steady levels of carbon feeding into the growth “


#28

View attachment 192146

View attachment 192147

According to Tom Barr:
Fairly New tank
2x week 80% water changes
KH 1-2
Light was about 140-200
CO2 about 60 ppm
NO3 15
PO4 5
K 20
CSM+B 0.1 ppm Fe, 0.2 ppm DTPA Fe and Fe gluconate, total 0.3 ppm Fe
Total 0.2 -0.3 ppm Fe added weekly

In that tank above we have the following weekly doses of Macro/Micros:
N 3.4
P 1.6
K 20
Fe 0.3
Mn 0.02864
Cu 0.00138
Mg 0.02144
Zn 0.00567
Mo 0.00077
B 0.01225

Tom Barr also said that there was no need to add more, this was Max for most things.
Tom Barr believe that too much NH4 gives too much Branching or side shoots
Tom Barr also suggested using high quality Traces/Fe
Tom Barr also stated that family of the plants the Lythraceae is an abnormality



Chat with Marian:
Direct quote from him:
“It does better in aquasoil. The nh4 should play an important role I have tried it in inert substrate as well. It can grow good if the substrate is at least 2 or 3 weeks old, and if it's not full of organics When the substrate is high on organics, the stem melts. The roots are not growing the way they should be. With no good roots, the plant does not grow healthy
But as i said, it grows better in aquasoil. Everything grows better in aquasoil
I have stopped using aquasoil in my big tanks where i keep my plants collection because i have no time to keep it as clean as it should be. After 3 months, the aquasoil accumulates a lot of dirt which causes a lot of problems, like algae, like melting. I have around 70 species in there and it's hard to keep app of them happy in an aquasoil tank
In inert gravel with Root Caps i can grow them without so many melting problems and without so many algae problems
But for example, cuphea does not grow as nice as it does in aquasoil. or maybe i didn't find a way to grow it in good shape in inert gravel. I am still studying
From my experience i can say nothing about this. I don't think that higher nutrient values can have a bad impact on it. For me it grew nice when i did smaller water changes”


Marian also believes that high NPK will grow plant bigger but didn’t provide any numbers, we could use his fertilizer and dosing for reference. Marian Doesn’t use NH4 in is his fertilizer, he has only done so for some experimental after we have chatted about it while back. Under his urea and lean dosing experiment, he said he obtained very small plants but super healthy plants in his 5–6-month old aqua soil. Here:
View attachment 192140


He has also mentioned the following:
Black painted quartz 2-3 mm grain size is his preferred substrate
He also agrees that some of his Ammania weren't looking so good and that he could not grow them any better than this.
The plant can be grown in many conditions
But you need to take in consideration many factors. He also used Sudipta's guides as an example for Ammania
No CO2 will grow this plant very slow and with very short internodes and smaller size leaves
High CO2 will grow it fast, thicker stems, bigger leaves
This is his logic and experience
There isn't a standard
He has grown it in lean dosing as well with high co2, very small plants but super healthy.


View attachment 192141


View attachment 192142
View attachment 192143
View attachment 192144
View attachment 192145


I will repeat again, that this plant can be grown under lean or higher dosing, that’s not the main problem here. This was already demonstrated under the Marschner ratio where using N as Proxy, it was used from 1-7 ppm N range to see if this plant can tolerate those levels under the Post# #103 While some leave damages started to appear once the dosing got extremely high (N), this plant continued to grow and grew straight leaves.
If someone is struggling with this plant weather under lean dosing or Higher dosing, then the problems are likely to be related to their water parameters, substrate, fertilizers or ratios are likely the cause. This also include the quality of their fertilizer such as Micros/Fe etc. If one is growing them decent under different ratio of fertilizer, this would suggest that their water parameters, Substrate are good to begin with. majority of people who can grow them in higher dosing, usually use NH4 enriched substrate such as aqua soil, which helps this plant tremendously. Weather you dose higher dosing or not, in a meanwhile this plant will continue to benefit from the NH4 and continue to do well. The problem may arise for this plant once the sources of NH4 are completely exhausted, which are usually rare in the aquarium. Because most people are almost never limited with NH4 as it is produced by fish and is naturally occurring process. But the problem here would be that too much NO3 usually buildup overtime, depending on how your tank is setup, the NO3 can be eliminated or reduced significantly by the right bacteria which also reduce or eliminate the NO3 that is being dosed into the aquarium. If one were to use higher dosing, especially Micros, they should aim for higher GH such as higher Ca and Mg levels. This usually prevent or help with the mishap from the Micros and at this point the importance of the ratio becomes less important even though it’s still important.

I don’t see the point why someone need to put so much effort to increase their dosing or co2 just to grow this plant when this plant seems to be growing under lean or even No Co2, you would also be putting your livestock at risk if you have any, just to grow this plant. Based on my own experiment and after gathering the data from most of the well-known people along with those who keep Ammania Golden or other picky plant species. I have gathered the following:
Now am not saying that only higher doseres were the only one who suffered here, even the lean dosers were struggling. But, in comparison there were more people who were successful with Ammania when dosing lean compared to those who were dosing high. Even those who were dosing high and keeping Ammania Golden well, they would encounter random issues with this plant such as stunting or twisting of all or some leave of this plant, in most cases bottom leaves were found to be majorly affected while this was not the case for those who kept this plant under lean or didn’t dose the water Colum and only relied on rich NH4 based substrate. Also, most of these people who were dosing higher nutrients were found to be replacing or adding new soil quite often, some were adding NH4 based root tabs quite often. Majority of those who had serious issues with this plant were dosing quite rich doses such as 0.5 ppm Fe from CSM+B along with very rich Macros.

This thread is mainly regarding how to grow “Ammania Golden” and the primary focus should be “how to grow this plant healthy” and It would be wise to do your own experiments and also gather multiple data from multiple people weather its lean or high dosing and then compare it with each other’s and see where and how we could find the proper solution for this plant. It’s not about competition between Lean vs High at this point.
Any idea on Ca and Mg in Tom’s tank? Great thread also.
 
Small update on my ammannia.
42EED80F-9D38-4592-BCE6-3F4423CF841D.jpeg

Surprisingly, the vast majority of stems continued growing well, even with the large change and moving tanks, especially when I replanted them without roots.
 
How does she behave in low light condition, how's the color, etc ? i have no trouble groing the gracilis in hard water with low light, the color is a mix in red and green, i think they call that "cognac color" i don't know about the golden in such conditions
 
How does she behave in low light condition, how's the color, etc ? i have no trouble groing the gracilis in hard water with low light, the color is a mix in red and green, i think they call that "cognac color" i don't know about the golden in such conditions
looking forward to your latest photos - interested to see you cognac coloured Gracilis!
 
Any idea on Ca and Mg in Tom’s tank? Great thread also.
this is the direct quote i got from Tom Barr, but i strongly believe he keeps his KH around 1, GH less than 5 or so.

“Tap is a little heavy on Ca based on a 3:1 Ca:Mg by mass. Does not matter sh** though. It can be 10:1 to 1:1. Only big factor for most folks would be not adding enough GH consistently and or adding enough Mg. Many trace mixes add the Mg eg, Tropica’s trace
Maybe 10:4 per dose by mass, not atomic
It does not matter though
The garage tanks proved that years ago
Tanks got no dosing for 3-6 months, all Ammannia species responded very very well. I added GH and other fert for the other plants. Ammannia does dandy without any water column, just ADA soil alone for years.”
 
Picsssssssssss

Or at least many words.
Please 😇
Hehe.
I’ve posted these somewhere I think.
1660592374054.jpeg

1660592517117.jpeg

Can’t find my posts about it but I’ll go for summarized.

Natures hint is Rubiscos functionality preference at pH 8-9 but that only happens much later in the day … after the plant has sucked up it’s last bit of co2 it needs for the day.

If you track pH during the photoperiod, there will be a time ~ 4-6 hours in almost like clockwork that the pH plummets (if you have high enough co2 injection which needs high light etc to demonstrate the consumption during the photoperiod).

There is also a time ~ 30min -1 hour in (regardless of light delivered) such that the pH will skyrocket — if you have low enough co2 injection to demonstrate the consumption.

Those two scenarios illustrate when the plant “gets going” and when “it’s full”. You don’t need to give co2 at the same rate at those times.

During that 4-6 hours of prime photosynthesis — you better be in co2 excess situation (even by little amounts) or you will spawn algae. The worse you are out, the uglier the algae … brush, stag, etc. Is correlation and is likely related to the impact unhealthy plants on the overall balance of the system down to micro.

You just need to get the system where it needs to be by the time the plants get going. If you have lots of light in your room, this could be 10 minutes … if you are dark like ADA gallery, it’s 30 ;) <— now you see why they turn co2 with lights. So does Filipe … aquaflora gallery.

Yes, the plants are going at lights on — you can pearl the tank within minutes. My record was 8 - with fish happy and healthy. Can probably do better now but I wanted to go from pitch black! Haha!

So, it’s ok to turn it on with lights. And it’s ok to turn it off after the fill up period.

It’s unnecessary? It’s safer to tell people to turn it on 1 hour before lights and 1 hour after so they don’t screw it up - but it’s not gospel.

The standard advice is good. But with low lights, you chase a low injection rate and if you connect the pieces above, you will end up with a massive ramp and unstable co2 during photo unless you enter the rabbit hole of light reduction … then you have less oxygen in the system and it ends up as an inefficient system.

The ideal circumstance is to mirror nature with co2, and temp.

Run co2 very light injection the whole time, dose very very little except minerals (since they are provided As a steady flow and or in substrate) and let it saturate at peak lowest pH at lights on. Once those plants get going bang - they will use up all that co2 and hopefully you have enough injection to make it “right until the fill up” — swoop suck in that finale of co2 and then let that Rubisco shine at high pH … while the water is out of co2, abundant in oxygen, and temp is at max metabolic rates. Gorgeous. From there, when plants are done, the co2 will begin to saturate, the pH will drop, the temp decrease, the gases stay in (gas laws) … O2 is high! Co2 is high! Rinse and repeat.

I lost my mind trying to get it right - but when I did it was wonderful. Until the tank grew. Then headache all over again.

That’s when I realized why Amano used the system he did.

With lean enough ferts co2 can be injected all day - but it isn’t worth the instability in my opinion (Especially if a kid drops biscuits in your tank @Geoffrey Rea.). You can get the forms you want though.


Note - Rubisco functions better with co2 in excess than not enough co2. 😂

Oh ya - so, it need not be stable related to the start and finish, but it does when the plant is going!
 
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Very interested in your explanation @JoshP12 , I know this thread isnt "Explain things to Hufsa" but I had a little trouble following you all the way and I really want to understand if you can oblige me:

Hehe.
I’ve posted these somewhere I think.

Can’t find my posts about it but I’ll go for summarized.

Natures hint is Rubiscos functionality preference at pH 8-9 but that only happens much later in the day … after the plant has sucked up it’s last bit of co2 it needs for the day.

If you track pH during the photoperiod, there will be a time ~ 4-6 hours in almost like clockwork that the pH plummets (if you have high enough co2 injection which needs high light etc to demonstrate the consumption during the photoperiod).

There is also a time ~ 30min -1 hour in (regardless of light delivered) such that the pH will skyrocket — if you have low enough co2 injection to demonstrate the consumption.

Those two scenarios illustrate when the plant “gets going” and when “it’s full”. You don’t need to give co2 at the same rate at those times.

During that 4-6 hours of prime photosynthesis — you better be in co2 excess situation (even by little amounts) or you will spawn algae. The worse you are out, the uglier the algae … brush, stag, etc. Is correlation and is likely related to the impact unhealthy plants on the overall balance of the system down to micro.
Ok following you up to here, and then I fall off on the stuff below
You just need to get the system where it needs to be by the time the plants get going. If you have lots of light in your room, this could be 10 minutes … if you are dark like ADA gallery, it’s 30 ;) <— now you see why they turn co2 with lights. So does Filipe … aquaflora gallery.

Yes, the plants are going at lights on — you can pearl the tank within minutes. My record was 8 - with fish happy and healthy. Can probably do better now but I wanted to go from pitch black! Haha!
Dont understand this yet, can you elaborate?

So, it’s ok to turn it on with lights. And it’s ok to turn it off after the fill up period.
Ok I understand the conclusion on this just missing comprehension on the why

It’s unnecessary? It’s safer to tell people to turn it on 1 hour before lights and 1 hour after so they don’t screw it up - but it’s not gospel.

The standard advice is good. But with low lights, you chase a low injection rate and if you connect the pieces above, you will end up with a massive ramp and unstable co2 during photo unless you enter the rabbit hole of light reduction … then you have less oxygen in the system and it ends up as an inefficient system.

The ideal circumstance is to mirror nature with co2, and temp.

Run co2 very light injection the whole time, dose very very little except minerals (since they are provided As a steady flow and or in substrate) and let it saturate at peak lowest pH at lights on.
Minerals? Can you expand on this?
Once those plants get going bang - they will use up all that co2 and hopefully you have enough injection to make it “right until the fill up” — swoop suck in that finale of co2 and then let that Rubisco shine at high pH … while the water is out of co2, abundant in oxygen, and temp is at max metabolic rates. Gorgeous. From there, when plants are done, the co2 will begin to saturate, the pH will drop, the temp decrease, the gases stay in (gas laws) … O2 is high! Co2 is high! Rinse and repeat.

I lost my mind trying to get it right - but when I did it was wonderful. Until the tank grew. Then headache all over again. Especially if a kid drops biscuits in your tank @Geoffrey Rea.

That’s when I realized why Amano used the system he did.

With lean enough ferts co2 can be injected all day - but it isn’t worth the instability in my opinion. You can get the forms you want though.


Note - Rubisco functions better with co2 in excess than not enough co2. 😂

Oh ya - so, it need not be stable related to the start and finish, but it does when the plant is going!
Hmm so.. but if the start-finish period is 4-6 hours then that is almost the full lighting period for many folks? So then it could be said we are still talking about the same thing?
 
Very interested in your explanation @JoshP12 , I know this thread isnt "Explain things to Hufsa" but I had a little trouble following you all the way and I really want to understand if you can oblige me:
For sure! I am no authortity though so continue to be skeptical.
JoshP12 said:
You just need to get the system where it needs to be by the time the plants get going. If you have lots of light in your room, this could be 10 minutes … if you are dark like ADA gallery, it’s 30 ;) <— now you see why they turn co2 with lights. So does Filipe … aquaflora gallery.

Yes, the plants are going at lights on — you can pearl the tank within minutes. My record was 8 - with fish happy and healthy. Can probably do better now but I wanted to go from pitch black! Haha!
Dont understand this yet, can you elaborate?


Ok I understand the conclusion on this just missing comprehension on the why
At lights on, the plants begin to photosynthesize. At that point, they are warming up and the demand for CO2 is lower than after they are warmed up. So, at lights on, the plant doesn't need (just pretend in my next statement) "30 ppm of co2" ... maybe it only needs 10 ppm. But one minute later maybe it needs 11ppm, and then in 10 minutes maybe it needs 25 ppm. So 30 ppm isn't bad to have from lights on. But 11ppm is ok too (when it needs 10ppm), and then 12 ppm is ok when it needs 11 and so on.

It's a game of supply and demand - chase - you just need to give the plant a bit more than it needs ... but each moment it's revving up so you need to rev up faster! Hence injection rates delivering just a bit more co2 than needed and hitting proper saturation "once they start going ~ 30-45 minutes?"

If you deliver room lighting in abundance, THEN blast them with the lasers from above, they may already be "using 15 ppm" (just pretend) so you need to be that much faster on the delivery --- because they were "primed" from room lighting.

And 8 minutes to get the first pearling on the tank from blackout conditions. :)

Minerals? Can you expand on this?
Everything positively charged. Potassium and micro are going to come from sediment or leeched in the water from the surrounding rocks ... inorganic equilibriums based on the acidity of the system from CO2 buildup over night. Really depends on the river system or lake etc. Tributaries, channels.
Hmm so.. but if the start-finish period is 4-6 hours then that is almost the full lighting period for many folks? So then it could be said we are still talking about the same thing?
I ran up to 16 hour photoperiod for fun ... but I know others who have been much more intense than myself in this way to grow a tank in a fast for competition ...24hours.

In the case of short photoperiod, then certainly that "begining 30 minutes ish" can be different than the final. But the final should not differ too much from peak minimum pH ~ proper pH drop.

Hope that helps :)
 
Hehe.
I’ve posted these somewhere I think.
View attachment 192591
View attachment 192592

Nice plants but no Ammannia Pedicatella :)

This is a thread where people can come to read up on how to grow Ammannia Pedicatella...... its not another CO2 thread. Peace 🙏

Going back to the topic of the Golden. Sudipta can grow the plant without injecting CO2 into the tank. This of course doesn't mean there is no CO2 in the tank as he has taken steps to maximise the CO2 in the water without injecting (shallow tank, colder water to increase solubility, good circulation for gas exchange surface/substrate).

I'm wondering has Sudipta done a degassed pH profile of his tank to estimate how much CO2 is in his tank? I may have missed that piece of info.
 
Hello ! Interresting topic about golden !
Mine started from in vitro, about four months ago.
Conditions are
180 L
Substrate crushed lava, powersand, tropica aquasoil.
Filtration oase biomaster 850 with sponges and aquario neo soft media
Water 200 microsiemens GH3 pH 6
light chihiros wrgb 2 50% 7hours
CO2 drop checker green (not lime green)
Ferts profito and kalium 2/3 dose every day
Fishs 20 red nose, amano shrimps and snails.

Very low growing but seem healthy. Yellow new leaves but with reddish spots. Strange ? Why these spots ? Any advice ? Thanxs !
20220816_150111.jpg
20220816_150054.jpg
 
A view from top 😉
Since the plant is growing so well with clean leaves I doubt it’s a co2 issue. If you have the ability/time could you write out your fertiliser in weekly ppm? That’s help.
 
3 weeks since i planted emersed golden in my hard tap water ( GH 17 KH 11, i boost the GH to 21 to get a better ca:mg ratio). I inject a ton of CO2 i don't know how much, but i know that it's not beyond 30 ppm, my snail are thriving, my 15 gallon use 2kg of co2 in 2 months

Maybe not the best color but seems like the plant can grow well in hard water, there is a gracilis left in the front. the golden do not seems to be a fast growing plant ?

Light : 1 * 24w osram lumilux 965 t5ho @ 10cm, i doubt this is high light, rotala indica is golden and rotala rotudifolia stay green
Ferts : 2 ppm po4, 19 ppm no3, 0.2 ppm iron, not lean dosing in that tank due to the hard tap water, i had issue with thread algae, since i boosted the po4 they're not there anymore
 

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Hi all,
This might be a silly question, but has any-one grown Ammania (Nesaea) pedicatella emersed?

Then you could play with nutrient ratios without having to take CO2 into account. I'm guessing that it will be a lot happier emersed <"and may flower">, which would help with naming as well.

This is another member of the Lythraceae (@Kezzab 's Rotala rotundifolia), but <"it shows what I mean">.

20210614_124823-jpg.jpg


cheers Darrel
 
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