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Mysterious issue with multiple plants

That doesn’t make sense. If his measured GH is 150ppm, then that’s equivalent to approx dGH of 8.

This is GH not KH.

How did you get to 24?

Using arithmetic:

If the 150 ppm is made up of Calcium and Magnesium in a 3.2:1 ratio. from Equilibrium: 115 ppm of Ca 35 ppm of Mg. ((115 + 35 = 150) or 115 / 35 = ~3.2 ratio.

115 ppm of Ca to dGH is 115/7.14 = 16.10 dGH
35 ppm of Mg to dGH is 35 / 4.34 = 8.06 dGH.

Total dGH is 16.10 + 8.06 = 24.16 dGH.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Michael
 
For many tests the general hardness is given as ppm of CaCO3 equivalent, giving much higher numbers than the concentration of Ca and Mg ions only. From memory, the conversion is something near 17x
 
For many tests the general hardness is given as ppm of CaCO3 equivalent, giving much higher numbers than the concentration of Ca and Mg ions only. From memory, the conversion is something near 17x
If the number is CaCO3 equivalent then the conversion would be ppm / 17.84.... Thats why we ask where numbers come from :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
@MichaelJ thank you. Internet searches just gave a converter which has been very mispleading.
Yes. We still do not know where that 150 ppm number came from - I just followed my hypothesis it was from the Equilibrium.... if it is indeed some sort of CaCO3 equivalent (which is sort bunk as Equilibrium is only changing GH and not KH, and such a measurement do not take the proper Mg amounts into account either...) then the correctly derived dGH would be closer to the ~8 as you suggested.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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My guess is that he used a GH test that has a scale in ppm of CaCO3 equivalent.
@LMuhlen, I think you might be very correct on your guess... I ran the numbers. @Zoefish would have to add an obscene amount of Equilibrium to reach 24 dGH from his 1 dGH tap if that would be the case - something like a 145 grams per 100 liters. It would also add an intoxicating 280 ppm of K.... :eek:

So lets rule out the 24 dGH for now :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
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@MichaelJ has noted the ideal calcium to magnesium ratio above. This exists because there needs to be a <homeostatic balance> between these cations in plant cells.
In the past we have seen Niloc fertilisers with a very high magnesium to calcium ratio, as noted <here>.
Remineralisers should ideally conform to this ratio, so it would be worth letting us know which one you use to raise water hardness?
 
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Darrel has noted the ideal calcium to magnesium ratio above.
Quick question: Which post # are you referring to?
Remineralisers should ideally conform to this ratio, so it would be worth letting us know which one you use to raise water hardness?
@Zoefish mentioned in post #35 that he uses Seachem Equilibrium to raise GH. The Ca:Mg ratio in Equllibrium is somewhere between 3.2:1 - 3.3:1.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Sorry @MichaelJ... it was your <post> 👍 ... I will edit.
I suppose that leaves the chemical composition of the fertiliser as something worth investigating further. I am not sure how much calcium is available to plants.
 
Before I moved to my current place (and started having these issues)
Did the move of the tank happen relatively closely prior to the timeframe when the issues started back in September? Moving a tank can be quite tricky and usually a task that needs to be done swiftly to keep the integrity of the substrate and not to put too much strain on the livestock and plants etc. in the process. Anyway, I will cease with my ramblings until we get more info :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
@Zoefish, Exactly how much water do you change and how many grams of equilibrium do you add?


How is this number obtained? Not considering your tap dGH which is ~1.... If your 150ppm reading is truly dGH (Ca and Mg ONLY) it means your Ca is 115 and Mg is 35 ppm (Equilibrium's Ca:Mg ratio is 3.2:1) or 24 dGH from the equilibrium. That is very, very high!

Cheers,
Michael
Hi all,

Microgram per litre is 10^-9 grams in terms of a litre of water (which weighs 1000 grams), milligram per litre is equivalent to "ppm" 10^-6 grams.

That is ppm or its equivalent mg / L. You have 9 ppm calcium (Ca) and 1/3 ppm magnesium (Mg).

Combined with the conductivity reading of 55 microS (expressed as the old unit (non-SI) mho, but it is a 1 : 1 conversion), you have something close to RO coming out of your tap. As an example your tap water has less ions in it than the rain-water I collect from my roof in SW England.

Agreed, if you want to carry on using <"Seachem Equilibrium">, just use a lot less.

cheers Darrel
Hi all,

I’m on my lunch break at the moment so I can’t fully investigate all the info in new comments from you all, but I’m going to answer what I can for now.

The 150 ppm reading comes from test strips made by aquarium co op and API. I test with both and compare the readings which are generally roughly similar (within 30 ppm). I add equilibrium at each water change to my new water by comparing the reading I get inside the tank to the reading in the tap water, and adding enough equilibrium to make the new water equal, and then check again to make sure it matches. I do the same with my KH booster- don’t remember the name of it but it’s the same brand. It’s not exactly a scientific system obviously. I’m not sure the amount of equilibrium in grams as the directions are written in teaspoons. I believe at last water change I was adding about a teaspoon of equilibrium per 2.5 gallon bucket added to the tank, so that would have been 1 and 1/3 tablespoon added back to the tank.
I do know that test strips are not considered that accurate generally. The people at aquarium co op told me they were good to get a rough ballpark though so I use them and supplement with liquid tests when the reading isn’t what I was expecting. But I know the liquid tests aren’t always accurate either so I’m not sure what the alternative is.
What I’m hearing so far (and I haven’t gotten a chance to dive into all these responses yet) is that my GH is quite high. The only reason I have it so high is because I wanted it closer to the recommended range for Endlers that I found online. But if they can tolerate a lower amount I will definitely start gradually decreasing it!
 
Did the move of the tank happen relatively closely prior to the timeframe when the issues started back in September? Moving a tank can be quite tricky and usually a task that needs to be done swiftly to keep the integrity of the substrate and not to put too much strain on the livestock and plants etc. in the process. Anyway, I will cease with my ramblings until we get more info :)

Cheers,
Michael
Hi Michael,

Yes, it was! And I’m certain I put quite a bit of strain on the livestock, plants etc. the tank spent a few days in the covered carport (temperatures were pretty reasonable here at that time), partially filled with Saran wrap over it (there was no livestock in it at the time). Not ideal but i was moving so things were crazy. However the plants started to become stressed gradually after this point, it wasn’t an immediate nosedive like I would expect from a stressed out houseplant. What do you mean by integrity of the substrate?
 
Hi all,
The only reason I have it so high is because I wanted it closer to the recommended range for Endlers that I found online. But if they can tolerate a lower amount I will definitely start gradually decreasing it!
I kept some male ones in soft water (about 120 microS) without any problem, but I've never tried to breed them.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi @Zoefish,

Thanks for filling in with additional info:

I add equilibrium at each water change to my new water by comparing the reading I get inside the tank to the reading in the tap water, and adding enough equilibrium to make the new water equal, and then check again to make sure it matches. I do the same with my KH booster- don’t remember the name of it but it’s the same brand.
You don't need KH booster. I would just go with the low KH of your tap water. But let us know the brand name and how much you dose for good measures?

It’s not exactly a scientific system obviously. I’m not sure the amount of equilibrium in grams as the directions are written in teaspoons. I believe at last water change I was adding about a teaspoon of equilibrium per 2.5 gallon bucket added to the tank, so that would have been 1 and 1/3 tablespoon added back to the tank.
OK, I will assume costumary units according to the American National Standard Institute. 1 US Teaspoon is 4.93 grams. 1 US Tablespoon is 14.79 grams. 1 US Gallon is 3.78 Liters.

So your adding 4.93 grams per 2.5 x 3.78 liter of WC water. which comes to a dGH of 8.75.

You say you add 1 1/3rd tablespoon with all your WC water so from that we can deduce you change (14.79 + 14.79/3) / 4.93 x 2.5 = 10 US gallon or 37.8 liter.

Adding (14.79 + 14.79/3) = 19.72 grams of Equilibrium to 37.8 liter yield a dGH of 8.75. So that checks out with your teaspoon per 2.5 US Gallon.

Broken down its 42 ppm of Ca and 12.5 ppm of Mg, 0.6 ppm of Fe. 0.3 ppm of Mn and about 100 ppm of Potassium - that level of potassium is very much unnecessary btw. but you dont have a choice with Equilibrium.

Your water hardness looks about OK, but you can easily reduce that a couple of degrees GH without jeopardizing your Endlers or shrimps.

I do know that test strips are not considered that accurate generally. The people at aquarium co op told me they were good to get a rough ballpark though so I use them and supplement with liquid tests when the reading isn’t what I was expecting. But I know the liquid tests aren’t always accurate either so I’m not sure what the alternative is.
I dont think we should worry about that now. Your test strip is definitely in the ballpark with the 150 ppm reading. If your tap is ~1 and your adding 8.75 that comes out as 9.75 or lets say 10 dGH. Your test strip says 150 ppm which in CaCO3 equivalents is 150 / 17.84 = 8.4 ... thats a discrepancy of 1.6 dGH - not accounting for the "KH booster" - no biggie unless your adding a lot of that.

What I’m hearing so far (and I haven’t gotten a chance to dive into all these responses yet) is that my GH is quite high. The only reason I have it so high is because I wanted it closer to the recommended range for Endlers that I found online. But if they can tolerate a lower amount I will definitely start gradually decreasing it!
I looked around myself... I think you can safely take it down to 6-7 or so. Keep in mind you also have shrimps that needs a fair amount of Calcium and Magnesium so slowly reducing it to 6 dGH in total is probably a good compromise. But honestly your plant issue is not just because of ~3 degrees of excess water hardness.

Hi Michael,

Yes, it was! And I’m certain I put quite a bit of strain on the livestock, plants etc. the tank spent a few days in the covered carport (temperatures were pretty reasonable here at that time), partially filled with Saran wrap over it (there was no livestock in it at the time). Not ideal but i was moving so things were crazy. However the plants started to become stressed gradually after this point, it wasn’t an immediate nosedive like I would expect from a stressed out houseplant. What do you mean by integrity of the substrate?
I started to suspect that when I re-read your original post. I gather the tank was originally mature and thriving. Plants dislike to be uprooted and moved around, but that alone with all other things being equal usually shouldn't cause them to flat out die out en masse (yes, certain plants like crypts are prone to melting when moved around even in the same established tank, so some of your plant species may be as sensitive)... Anyway, unhealthy plants quickly becomes algae magnets and that seems to be an issue as well... leaves that are already dying wont recover - they are better removed sooner rather than later.

Obviously, the substrate is a big part of the mature tank equation so I am suspecting - and I stress that I am just speculating here - that your problem in part may be caused by the ADA Amazonia substrate not been kept under ideal conditions during the move and/or perhaps it got seriously disturbed before or when you reestablished the tank which could have wrecked the microbial community in your substrate - perhaps even causing rot - foul oder coming from the tank is often associated with that. Of course, this would probably only account for the suffering of the rooted plants and not the issues with the floating pennyworth and frogbit which sounds more like deficiency issues.

Personally, I am not sure what I would do... a couple of massive water changes (80% perhaps), lower that GH a few degrees (stop adding KH booster) and straighten out any fertilizer and possible CO2 issues... and see how that goes after a couple of weeks, is probably where I would start....I do not know what else to suggest at the moment honestly. There are a ton of super knowledgable and astute people here that should be able to offer further advice so you can get your tank back on an even keel... It is important that we know as much as possible about what's been going on with the tank... it's often that little tidbit of info that makes all the difference.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Hi all,
You don't need KH booster. I would just go with the low KH of your tap water.
I think that would solve a lot of your plant nutrient deficiency issues. Once you've raised the pH and alkalinity iron (Fe++(+)) ions <"will inevitably go out of solution">.
I would consider whether these results could be due to nutrient lock-out, and in my experience this is most commonly caused by the overabundance of phosphates.
I'm going to guess that the iron (Fe) solubility issue is more to do with the formation of <"insoluble iron oxides, hydroxides and carbonates">, rather than the level of orthophosphate ions (PO4---).

As @Simon Cole says iron ions and phosphate ions <"form insoluble iron phosphate">, the reason I think this is of lesser importance is just a numbers game, and there are going to be a lot more HCO3- and OH- ions in solution, when compared to PO4--- ions.

cheers Darrel
 
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You don't need KH booster. I would just go with the low KH of your tap water. But let us know the brand name and how much you dose for good measures?
It's "Alkaline Buffer" by Seachem. I add it the same way I do with the Equilibrium- I test the water and then add enough to the new water to make them match. The tank water generally reads 40-80 ppm KH, so that has me adding about 1/2- 1 teaspoon to the new 10 gallons of water I add (3-6 grams).
 
Obviously, the substrate is a big part of the mature tank equation so I am suspecting - and I stress that I am just speculating here - that your problem in part may be caused by the ADA Amazonia substrate not been kept under ideal conditions during the move and/or perhaps it got seriously disturbed before or when you reestablished the tank which could have wrecked the microbial community in your substrate - perhaps even causing rot - foul oder coming from the tank is often associated with that. Of course, this would probably only account for the suffering of the rooted plants and not the issues with the floating pennyworth and frogbit which sounds more like deficiency issues.
Thanks for the input, Michael. I haven't had any foul odor from the tank. Is there any way to tell whether this is what's happened here?
it's often that little tidbit of info that makes all the difference.
Speaking of the microbial community, around the same time I moved everything to the new tank I added some new fish. I don't have any kind of quarantine setup but I did treat with the trio of meds Aquarium Co-op recommends directly in the main tank. Those meds are Ich-X, Maracyn Oxy, and Paracleanse. I treated according to package directions for all. I can include those directions here if they would help. The only obvious deleterious effect was that I had a nitrite spike midway through the treatment. My filter had crapped out at the same time I was treating so the tank went a couple days without the filter on without my noticing. I had read nitrite spikes may be an issue with these meds and luckily I caught it. I did some water changes, got the filter running and within a few days the nitrites were not reading as present anymore on liquid tests or test strips.


Thank you everyone for your help so far! One thing I want to point out/ask about is this: throughout this process, the primary symptom my plants have been showing is damage to the old leaves. This would point to something involving a mobile nutrient, correct? The hygrophila pinnatifida was the worst hit which is a bummer because I loved that plant and would really like to be able to grow it again. This plant consistently would get pinholes in the old leaves then the leaves would turn brown/yellow and disintegrate. Then the damage would move up the plant. I mentioned this early on in the thread, but I recently added some more hygrophila pinnatifida mostly as a test, and the same pattern of damage appeared within a couple of days. Someone earlier said that only non-mobile nutrient deficiencies should be able to show up this fast, so how does this make sense?
 
It's "Alkaline Buffer" by Seachem. I add it the same way I do with the Equilibrium- I test the water and then add enough to the new water to make them match. The tank water generally reads 40-80 ppm KH, so that has me adding about 1/2- 1 teaspoon to the new 10 gallons of water I add (3-6 grams).
Hi @Zoefish, Seachem Alkaline Buffer is Sodium Bicarbonate (NaHCO3). I highly recommend stop using that. There are absolutely no reasons I can think of that makes it necessary for you to raise your KH levels in your planted tank above what your tap water is providing. Its a fools errand to try and finely tune pH with these products - I am speaking from disastrous experiences myself. As with anything else, just make sure you taper off the usage slowly over a couple of a WC's so the plants and livestock can adapt.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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1) your Nitrate is at 30ppm - so we need to take our PO4 up from your low amount to at least 6ppm. In conjunction with this, it would be prudent to hike your Ca up to 30 and your Mg up to 10 and plunk potassium in the middle around 18. Give it a couple weeks of consistency and see what happens.

2) go the other way: back to back water change neutralize your water column to zero everything and dose little N and P maybe 2 NO3 and 1 PO4 and then add about 6 potassium.
Hi Josh- just going through these older replies. Can you explain where you're getting these numbers from? Not in terms of the math, in terms of the particular ratios you're suggesting.

If you want precision:
Option 2 requires dry salts. Option 1 requires dry salts.
I don't mind using dry salts if it would help significantly but I'd prefer to keep it simple and avoid extra maintenance/math.
OR we keep it simple and do something in between but those fertilizer composition aren’t always “great” for that. APT complete is … so we could fix your current ferts with salts.
Is APT complete a preferable all in 1 fertilizer to the one I'm using? What makes it better? Would I need to be adding salts in addition to APT complete? I don't have any particular attachment to the fertilizer I am using if there's a better option.
You see - you’re using very rich substrate so let the roots get the nutrients for you and keep the column clean (that’s the ada ideology) and when paired with soft water it works wonderfully when enough potassium and micros are in the water in tandem with feeding fish appropriately for N/P - good maintenance and proper co2 with fixed lighting scheme.
I do have a significant amount of plants growing epiphytically. This approach wouldn't be an issue for them?
 
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