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Who needs a tank for a dark start…. Let’s see.

Dryrot

Dryrot

Member
Joined
28 Jan 2023
Messages
32
Location
Leeds
Hi all. I have just joined you. I’m Bryan Hindle. 62 year old semi retired so returning to fishkeeping to save my sanity.

New tank will take several weeks to arrive. I plan a dark start once it‘s here. Could be weeks before there is anything pleasant and relaxing to look at.

I intend to mitigate that if I can. Hence the canister filter is coming asap. I will cycle the filter through a 25 litre bin with some aqua soil to seed it and a teaspoon of gunk from my hot in compost bin. An air stone will keep the bacteria alive and cheap test strips to monitor any ‘progress’.

Photo to follow and I’ll keep a journal of water parameters. Fish food used to top up the ammonia load.

I hope to have a colony established in the filter by the time I get my tank in three or four weeks (an Oase 200 from Germany).

should be an interesting diversion from thinking about how important my old job was…..

Any ideas on this would be appreciated.

Dryrot.
 
Welcome!
If you manage to keep enough surface movement with the filter you shouldn't need an air stone in my opinion, but it's not a bad thing anyway.
It could be better to keep the water at least at 20 °C or so, lower temperature might slow down the bacteria.
Have a nice weekend, hopefully you find a lot of ways to enjoy your retirement.

*I said weekend but it was Tuesday 🤔 have a nice week!
 
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Thanks for the advice Valerio,

The filter has a built in heater so I plan on around 24 oC to be nearer to the planned tank temp. I agree it will be like a washing machine in the tub 😂

yes, after a long and had career I look forward to new experiences and time to relax.

Bryan
 
The dark start begins without the tank.

Hi fellow members!

I have obtained the Oase thermo 600 and connected it to a 30l tub (plus about 5l in the canister. The filter is left as it was unpacked - two baskets of the K-X media, four foam filled baskets including three 20ppm and one 30ppm.

There's the pre-filter too. Heater set to 26c

Added a bag of JBL AquaBasis plus in the bottom of the tub. Water turned into tea immediately but cleared after 24 hours. Used dechlorinator.

My tap water is hard at 120/6.8o and over 8.6dg GH. The pH seems to have fallen slightly since I put the substrate in, but of course the strips may be wonky.... started out at 7.6 and now 6.8

Zero ammonia and no Nitrite. Nitrate is 25ppm as per Yorkshire water's web site.

Yesterday put a torn Colliflower leaf in, and today I added a king prawn from the freezer (boiled it first in case there were any nasty Vietnamese fish-farm germs in there lol).

I hope to see an ammonia spike soon. On the advice of my local aquarist (Harrogate Aquatics where Luke and Alison are already sick of me), I'm adding 2.5ml of Waterlife's BacterLife 'starter' culture, every day.

The tub lives in the conservatory for now and I've covered it with a towel to keep algae at bay.

Fingers crossed.

Bryan
Image2.jpeg Aquabasis.jpeg Prawnsoup.jpeg
 
Hi all,
Dryrot said:
I hope to see an ammonia spike soon. On the advice of my local aquarist (Harrogate Aquatics where Luke and Alison are already sick of me), I'm adding 2.5ml of Waterlife's BacterLife 'starter' culture, every day.
Click to expand...
You don't actually need the ammonia source or the bacterial starter, you just have to <"plant the tank and wait for it to grow in">. I like at least six weeks, but <"active plant growth"> is the parameter that matters.

The only time you would need to try ammonia based cycling is in the <"Mbuna scenario">, where you need to introduce a large fish load in one hit and plants are problematic.

<"Everything you read"> (or are told by LFS etc) <"about cycling is wrong">, because it is based on the premise that the filter bacteria, the ones that oxidise ammonia (NH3 / NH4+) to nitrite (NO2-) and then nitrite to nitrate (NO3-) are the bacteria that occur in sewage treatment and require high levels of ammonia and carbonate hardness. The problem is that they (Nitrosomonas & Nitrobacter) aren't the microbes that actually occur in aquarium filters.

The microbes that have been <"found in aquarium filters"> (by looking for the genes that code for ammonia oxidation) are Ammonia Oxidising Archaea (AOA), nitrite oxidising Nitrospira spp. and COMAMMOX Nitrospira sp., which directly oxidise ammonia to nitrate. <"These have only been found in the 21st century"> and it has revolutionised our knowledge about nitrification.

We recently had a discussion thread with Ryan Newton, one of the leading researchers in this field; <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee">.

Have a look at some comment from Tim Hovanec as well, in <"Bacteria revealed"> and our conversation with him <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">.

cheers Darrel
 
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Thank you Darrel,
I have been loitering and read a lot of the stuff on the form, and was fascinated by your expert input. My reason for the pot of muddy water was to get a head start as my tank is delayed and I wanted the filter to run up a bit before the tank even got here. Oh dear, what an idiot eh?

Well, I have a lot of time, an enquiring mind, and a need to keep occupied. I will carry on and plan the planting and hardscape for when the tank actually turns up.

Thank you for the advice - I will follow the links... :)

Bryan.
 
Hello,

louis,

it is only I who thought my job was important. So much so that I was a workoholic for decades (not proud of it). I ran a small structural repair company I set up in 1986. Still trading but I stepped down as MD nearly 11 months ago. It is now something called an Employee Ownership Trust (EOT). this allows me to ease into retirement without feeling that I have abandoned my employees. They own it now:)

in effect I’m an ex surveyor now. Expert in building pathology.

love tropical fish. Always have but dropped it about 12 years ago. Using this group to try to bring myself back to some form of competence.

I don’t fancy watching my plants melt in the first few weeks, hence this dark start malarkey appealed lol.

Nice to meet you.
 
Hi all,
Dryrot said:
My reason for the pot of muddy water was to get a head start as my tank is delayed and I wanted the filter to run up a bit before the tank even got here. Oh dear, what an idiot eh?
Click to expand...
I don't think it really matters, I'd guess in the longer term it won't make a lot of difference, for good or bad.

Planted systems (plant / microbe biofiltration) are a lot more <"powerful and flexible"> than <"microbe only"> systems, which is partially why <"like them so much">. The way I visualise it is that as the plants grow in (both above and <"below the substrate surface">) they develop a <"complex, synergistic network of interacting plants and microbes"> and that means that there isn't ever a <"single point of failure">.
......... I like to think that our knowledge about nitrification has gone from motorway from A to B, with no alternative and every chance of the motorway being closed to a London Underground map with many different ways of <"getting to your destination">........
Click to expand...
Personally I haven't really believed in "cycling" as a binary switch between "unsafe" and "safe" <"since before scientists found all these novel nitrifying organisms">. The conversation with Dr Newton is pretty much where scientific knowledge is at the moment, it is still really in a discovery stage.

cheers Darrel
 
Thanks Darrel,

as a born-again fish keeper I carry a lot of baggage from the past. But I am not an old stick-in-the-mud and want to learn.

it’s actually the wonderful planted ‘scapes’ which brought me here to you guys. I see the passion and the eager sharing of knowledge and that appeals. I love Coryies and small danios. A heavily planted tank they can be happy in will do me.

many years ago I lost some prized dwarfe cyclids because I washed my canister filter with raw tap water….. hence I am wedded to keeping biological filtration healthy. Back then my plants were an afterthought. I look forward to being pleasantly surprised, when I have a biosphere so balanced that the filter is superfluous. Until then, if it don’t harm, I will hang on to my mammas coat ☺️. I’m too scared to change just yet.

best Bryan
 
Hi all,
Dryrot said:
as a born-again fish keeper I carry a lot of baggage from the past.
Click to expand...
I know exactly what you mean. I think if I had just been a fish-keeper, and hadn't have visited<" sewage works">, <"landfills etc">, been told about <"phytoremediation"> etc. I wouldn't have gained the insights that I have.
Dryrot said:
Back then my plants were an afterthought.
Click to expand...
Yes, in many ways the past is a different country. I've been a <"truly terrible fish-keeper">, but I honestly believe that planted tanks are the way forward in terms of fish care and husbandry.

cheers Darrel
 
dw1305 said:
The microbes that have been <"found in aquarium filters"> (by looking for the genes that code for ammonia oxidation) are Ammonia Oxidising Archaea (AOA), nitrite oxidising Nitrospira spp. and COMAMMOX Nitrospira sp., which directly oxidise ammonia to nitrate. <"These have only been found in the 21st century"> and it has revolutionised our knowledge about nitrification.
Click to expand...
Darrel - I accept your premise that that bacterial cycling has been based on the wrong bacteria, but I'm admittedly confused on your conclusion - these new bacteria still need ammonia as a food source to proliferate surely? So I don't see how this point impacts the premise of ammonia cycling.

I also accept that ammonia cycling can never ever "fully cycle" a tank - that takes many many months of ecological warfare settling within our tanks, but I always thought the purpose of ammonia cycling was simply to ensure that the livestock don't suffer the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite. I've always ammonia cycled before adding fish for this reason. I'm not understanding how a tank can just be left for 6 weeks without adding ammonia, and then be safe to add fish - how is the bacteria proliferating here?
 
xZaiox said:
I'm not understanding how a tank can just be left for 6 weeks without adding ammonia, and then be safe to add fish - how is the bacteria proliferating here?
Click to expand...
Plant decay will produce ammonia as it decomposes. Of course, if your setting up a plant-less tank or scarcely planted tank and plan a large stock of fish that likely wouldn't work. If you plant dense from the get go, I don't even think 6 weeks is necessary - lots of plants and some good growth is all it takes. If that is the case after 3-4 weeks then I wouldn't be worried about slowly introducing livestock.


but I honestly believe that planted tanks are the way forward in terms of fish care and husbandry.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree... and I do believe I have become a better husband to my wife after I rebooted the planted aquarium hobby some years ago... not sure how you know all this :lol:

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Dryrot said:
Hello,

louis,

it is only I who thought my job was important. So much so that I was a workoholic for decades (not proud of it). I ran a small structural repair company I set up in 1986. Still trading but I stepped down as MD nearly 11 months ago. It is now something called an Employee Ownership Trust (EOT). this allows me to ease into retirement without feeling that I have abandoned my employees. They own it now:)

in effect I’m an ex surveyor now. Expert in building pathology.

love tropical fish. Always have but dropped it about 12 years ago. Using this group to try to bring myself back to some form of competence.

I don’t fancy watching my plants melt in the first few weeks, hence this dark start malarkey appealed lol.

Nice to meet you.
Click to expand...
That's really cool actually, I had never heard of an employee ownership trust before. I definitely think you've chosen the right hobby for your retirement! Look forward to seeing your tank once it's ready to go.........and then after that the tanks that will surely follow 👍
 
MichaelJ said:
Plant decay will produce ammonia as it decomposes. Of course, if your setting up a plant-less tank or scarcely planted tank and plan a large stock of fish that likely wouldn't work.
Click to expand...
Ahh yes, I was thinking of a plant-less tank, so this makes more sense now, thanks :)
 
louis_last said:
That's really cool actually, I had never heard of an employee ownership trust before. I definitely think you've chosen the right hobby for your retirement! Look forward to seeing your tank once it's ready to go.........and then after that the tanks that will surely follow 👍
Click to expand...
Aw, thanks Louis. When I found out about EOT’s I was thrilled. I had worried about my guys who have over 20 years service and have never known another ‘ boss‘. I’ve spent the last three years weaning them off Bryan lol. They can run it as a real team now, well from next March when I retire completely.

I ‘think too much’ you know the type? Fishkeeping is ideal. It feeds the obsessive mind, nurtures interest and calms the anxious. The gratitude of healthy fish and plants rewards all the work too.

That said, I have a minor quibble on sustainability of the hobby and want to avoid any wild caught fish or plants. I quit marines in the 90’s for this reason.

im a bit worried about the plants….. I expect the fishkeeping will be reasonably straightforward but I can see myself on a bumpy road as melting plants and algae blooms take over 😳
 
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