100+ppm calcium and nutrient uptake

Sammy Islam

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Thanks for your reply.

I use APF trace/micro ferts at the recommended dose which targets 0.2 fe from etda. I've also mixed in a bit of dpta to the mix so i probably dose around 0.3 fe per dose in total 3x a week. Iron is not a macro element, it is a micro/trace element which is why it's not in our macro mixes.

My lighting is a fluval fresh and planted 2.0 which is rated at 57par at 18" so i'd consider that medium-high light. Also my photoperiod is only 6.5 hours as i i have a lot of "slow" growing plants.
 
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I read this highly interesting topic and have one question:
If iron is bound to a chelate and this chelate is broken down by light and in our tanks. is it available to plants only before or after the chelate is affected by lights?
Would it be beneficial to add the chelated iron/trace mix at the time the lights turn on or of?
Or does it not matter one way or the other?

I have resently decreased my weekly micro dose and spread it out over several small doses. Daily and sometimes even twise a day.
This has really reduced the gda in the tank. And my slower growing plants is finally starting to look good.
 

Sammy Islam

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From my understanding the chelate holds onto the iron and and releases it slowly for our plants to absorb rather than all at once so it doesn't precipitate and react with other things.

That's why its best to dose just before lights come on because the co2 will have lowered ph to an acceptable range for the chelate to work (depending on degassed ph). Also apparently our plants only use iron for the first 1-2 hours of the photoperiod so making it most available when the lights turn on is the best route.

I like the idea of daily dosing as in my head it means iron and all other ferts are available everyday seeing as i dont know if my iron is broken down completely or not by the next day, if dosing alternate days. But seeing as my plants are fairly healthy i have to assume the alternate day was/is working and im just overthinking it too much with trying to daily dose given the iron and po4 reactions etc.
 
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dw1305

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Hi all,
From my understanding the chelate holds onto the iron and and releases it slowly for our plants to absorb rather than all at once so it doesn't precipitate and react with other things.

That's why its best to dose just before lights come on because the co2 will have lowered ph to an acceptable range for the chelate to work (depending on degassed ph). Also apparently our plants only use iron for the first 1-2 hours of the photoperiod so making it most available when the lights turn on is the best route.
That is it I think.

Plants just need a trickle of iron (Fe) and the chelator supplies it. If the pH is below pH7 then those iron ions (Fe+++) are plant available.
But seeing as my plants are fairly healthy i have to assume the alternate day was/is working
Yes, watch the plants, it works.

cheers Darrel
 

Zeus.

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Photo degradation of FeEDTA with Time in Commercially Produced Soluble Fertilizers ie Master Blend and Peters. by: Joseph P. Albano and William B. Miller www.researchgate.net/publication/279648904
Had a quick read of it and it didn't mention any water movement in the containers so I take it there wasn't any. So with diffusion being so slow in water I assume we can so for all practical purposes it doesn't take place unless the water is moving, but in our tanks the iron in the water column is being moved about due to our flow/tankturneover so the FeEDTA may/will degrade faster because of the flow and getting exposed to a higher PAR bombardment at the surface

another graph comparing FeDTPA and FeEDTA

upload_2019-12-6_14-51-24.png


Source William Miller

I've mixed in dpta to my micro mix and it isn't pink at all, more dark orange which doesn't discolour the water that much. I
assume most people in the uk live with hard water with parameters probably close to mine.

Do you just dose full EI on alternate days with the edta iron in the trace mix?
Do you supplement with dtpa aswell?
Do you dose more than you need to because of hard water?
Do you add trace/iron more often than EI calls for?
I made up my own custom trace mix then added Solufeed Fe 11 DTPA (1ppm (17.86 μmol/L) iron can be achieved by adding 9.5gramsof Solufeed Fe 11DTPA per 1000L of solution.) so 9.5g per liter yeilds 1000ppm add 100ml to 500ltank yields 0.2ppm Fe per dose, three times a week yields 0.6ppm weekly dose

But
Yes, watch the plants, it works.
I also found the FeDTPA doesnt discolour the tank much at all compared to FeEDDHA

I still was getting
upload_2019-12-6_15-3-18.png


So I started dosing some FeEDDHA manually on micro day - the above pic was post adding the FeEDDHA hence the green being back in the new growth.

Think the FeDPTA was breaking down either in the micro mix or by the light. I even light insulated my micro ferts dosing tubing.

The pale new growth has since returned again !

I have however decided to stop dosing LC (Liquid Carbon) as I dont think the tank needs it and have been reducing the dose slowly till the LC ran out. Have know setup my auto doser with FeEDDHA so I can dose it separately from the custom Micro mix and adjust it too suit the plants needs.

Was also planning (this weekend) to do a Micro mix without any Fe in. Then adjusting the FeEDDHA dose so the tank has a slight pink tinge for the rest of the photoperiod of Micro dosing day

Havent tried it using the STD EI Fe EDTA micro mix and adding FeEDDHA as a supplement. My tank was fine with STD EI Fe EDTA micro mix for the first 18 months and my water is hard to very hard.

So still work in progress and watching the plants

Hope it helps
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Yes, watch the plants, it works.
I still was getting
upload_2019-12-6_15-3-18-png.png


So I started dosing some FeEDDHA manually on micro day - the above pic was post adding the FeEDDHA hence the green being back in the new growth.
That is an absolutely perfect. I hadn't thought of some leaves growing slowly enough, so you could actually see the <"return to green">.

From looking at the <"Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum)"> I'd assumed you would only see an improvement in new leaves, but this is a really striking illustration of iron deficiency and recovery.

cheers Darrel
 

Oldguy

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water movement in the containers
That's my assumption. I was interested in these finding because of the high concentrations of fertilizer that was being used compared to our tank dosing concentrations.
As for the light in the test it was on for the duration, our planted tanks have a photo-period of about 8 to 10 hrs.

I am of the opinion that in hard water the half life depends more on the rate of displacement of the central ion in the chelate by Gp II metals than on other factors unless the lighting is Super Nova. However I keep my EDTA chelates in black containers in a closed cupboard and that goes for the dry salts, the 'concentrated' solution and the 1/10th solution that is added to the tank. The water for these solutions is rainwater, in the good old days it was distilled water. (When I started on this trail Solufeed only sold in industrial quantities so I have what I have). Hmmm next year the apple trees are going to get a dose or three or I need to rewrite my Will.

EI dosing on alternative days appears to work. Liked the greening of the leaves, would this indicate direct absorption of the chelate and its transportation through the plant.
 

Oldguy

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have one question:
Plants can and do absorb iron as a simple ion and also as a chelate and not just iron but other Transition metals also.

For convenience I dose at breakfast, macro and chelates on alternative days. Tank lights start to come on about mid day and go off about eight pm with a dawn/dusk and 'high noon' bit in the middle.

Frequent low dosing of traces is I think better than a once a week dose especially given half life issues. The EI approach uses alternative days for macro and micros.

Hope you enjoy the Forum. I am always learning.
 
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