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3 month old high tech set up - underwhelming plant growth - need help

Flyfisher

Seedling
Joined
21 Jul 2012
Messages
14
Hi all,

I set up a 72ltr Aquael Leddy 60 XL tank back in March with CO2 and feel my plants aren't just as healthy as they should be. Any help would be gratefully received, such as correct fertiliser and dosing rate?

The tank suffered from brown, diatomaceous algae and green algae for about 2 months at the start. I know this is to be expected but it really did seem to last forever. Swapping to Tropica premium, from fertilisers with N&P initially, has all but removed any algae, but some of the plants growth such as the Hygrophila siamensis s35 have very disappointing right from the start, as it is meant to grow like a weed. The bacopa has only recently started to show fresh growth as well (see photo). I was using "The Aquascaper" liquid feed in the beginning but thought this was making the brown algae worse so stopped. I did try Tropica specialised recently but thought that algae started to get worse again so went back to Tropica premium. I am expecting people to tell me to go back to using the Evolution aqua product, and to stick with it. I am currently dosing 3ml Tropica premium per day. Is this about right?

I am still building up the fish and shrimp numbers slowly: Shrimp - 7 amanos and 6 cherry. Fish 5 neons and 4 Pygmy Corydoras. They all seem healthy and I have only had 1 cherry shrimp die so far in total. The amanos are ancient as this is the third tank they have been moved to in about 5 or 6 years. Substrate = Tropica soil. Temp = 24oC. Lights = 2 Aquael LED tubes designed for the tank: 1 day & 1 plant (day on for 8 hours; 1300 - 2100, plant 1330 to 2030). CO2 - approx 1 bubble per second, on a timer: on at 1100, off at 1930. pH 6.4 - 6.6 with CO2 (tap water = 7.4). Filter = Oase Filtosmart thermo 100 (max flow = 600lph) filled with seachem matrix and foam. Some carbon as well. The carbon was used to remove staining from bogwood but I didn't think it cause any issues (like removing ferts). I also have an eheim 350 skimmer that i usually only put on overnight. Should I leave this on permanently? I get the feeling that the fish are already struggling with the flow in the tank. 25ltr water change per week (2 x 15 ltr buckets).

I also really don't want to add anymore CO2 as the tank already resembles a jacuzzi as it is. Also the tank is in a corner so the main view that I get while sitting on the couch is end on, so I really don't want things like diffusers on the side pane of glass.

Thanks

Alan

See photos below.


tank.jpg


hygrophila s35.jpg
co2 and filter.jpg
dropper.jpg
plant food.jpg
 
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Hi all,

I set up a 72ltr Aquael Leddy 60 XL tank back in March with CO2 and feel my plants aren't just as healthy as they should be. Any help would be gratefully received, such as correct fertiliser and dosing rate?

The tank suffered from brown, diatomaceous algae and green algae for about 2 months at the start. I know this is to be expected but it really did seem to last forever. Swapping to Tropica premium, from fertilisers with N&P initially, has all but removed any algae, but some of the plants growth such as the Hygrophila siamensis s35 have very disappointing right from the start, as it is meant to grow like a weed. The bacopa has only recently started to show fresh growth as well (see photo). I was using "The Aquascaper" liquid feed in the beginning but thought this was making the brown algae worse so stopped. I did try Tropica specialised recently but thought that algae started to get worse again so went back to Tropica premium. I am expecting people to tell me to go back to using the Evolution aqua product, and to stick with it. I am currently dosing 3ml Tropica premium per day. Is this about right?

Tropica Premium is a micro/trace element fert, not a macro fert. It contains no N or P So, you are not providing adequate ferts to your plants. The Specialized contains trace elements plus N and P. This, or a similar fert, is what you should be using. Over-fertilization in a balanced aquarium will not cause algae. Improper fertilization will.

Substrate = Tropica soil. Temp = 24oC. Lights = 2 Aquael LED tubes designed for the tank: 1 day & 1 plant (day on for 8 hours; 1300 - 2100, plant 1330 to 2030).

The Tropica Soil, like other ammonia rich aquasoils, will release ammonia and other chemicals into the water column for weeks. This can be partially compensated by very frequent water changes during the first weeks. Have you done that? If not, your plants could have been damaged right after planting and might still be recovering or may not recover at all.

The photoperiod might be way too much light since your plants lack nutrients.
CO2 - approx 1 bubble per second, on a timer: on at 1100, off at 1930. pH 6.4 - 6.6 with CO2 (tap water = 7.4).

Your drop checker is blueish. So, you are below the target CO2 value. Moreover, if you have low injection your tank will very likely have CO2 fluctuations during the day that can trigger algae and plant growth issues.

Filter = Oase Filtosmart thermo 100 (max flow = 600lph) filled with seachem matrix and foam. Some carbon as well. The carbon was used to remove staining from bogwood but I didn't think it cause any issues (like removing ferts). I also have an eheim 350 skimmer that i usually only put on overnight. Should I leave this on permanently? I get the feeling that the fish are already struggling with the flow in the tank. 25ltr water change per week (2 x 15 ltr buckets).

Set the goal to 50% weekly. But for a few weeks you should increase the frequency to try to stabilize the aquarium. You are using the Tropica micro fert daily, which would require more frequent and larger water changes. Tropica recommends dosing their micro 1x week, not 1x day.

The skimmer might make sense if you want to aerate the tank during the night and remove some surface debris. But your tank is not yet densely planted and you are not injection sufficient CO2, so it shouldn’t be needed, at least on a daily basis. The filter is the bare minimum for this tank. If the flow is too high you need to adjust the outlet or get a different type of outlet. But make sure you have proper circulation.

I also really don't want to add anymore CO2 as the tank already resembles a jacuzzi as it is. Also the tank is in a corner so the main view that I get while sitting on the couch is end on, so I really don't want things like diffusers on the side pane of glass.
Either you go for a tank with adequate CO2 injection or not. It is not an option to have inadequate CO2 injection because that will cause issues like the ones you are experiencing. You may consider an external reactor instead of diffuser to have a CO2 bubble free tank and better dissolution so that you increase and stabilize the CO2 concentration. Otherwise, better to remove the CO2 setup altogether and keep this tank as a low tech tank. The middle ground you have now will cause nothing but trouble.
 
I started off with using Tropica liquid ferts at the manufacturer's recommended dosage. However, from this forum, the fertiliser calculator, and George Farmer's book, I then learnt actually how 'dilute' Tropica liquid ferts are and how most 'high energy/high tech' tanks will need to exceed the 'recommended' amount by 5x or more. More importantly, I learnt that ferts don't cause algae... and its mainly CO2 problems that are the cause. Of course, just because I know the cause doesn't mean its easy to fix :)

This also implies that Tropica is actually quite expensive and there are competing commercial solutions that are far more 'concentrated'. Given that the 2hr aquarist line is readily available where I live, I use APT Complete plus a Micro/Trace fert (currently using left over Tropica but will switch to APT Zero - i.e. I add extra micros to make sure my tank plants have the iron/Trace/K they need) and its a lot of more concentrated than the Tropica formulation though the price per bottle is similar (of course, DIY seems to be the way to go if you have multiple tanks/a huge tank)

and something i learnt recently: using a light coloured background / light screen hugely reduces the visibility of the 7-Up / Jacuzzi effect of CO2 bubbles. CO2 bubbles are the most obvious when you have a dark-coloured background.
 
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Hi @Flyfisher

The others have covered some good points so will just add a few suggestions.

The tank suffered from brown, diatomaceous algae and green algae for about 2 months at the start.

Some diatoms are phototrophs, they can utilise light and your inorganic nutrients. This presents a problem in tackling them as their needs are the same as your plants. Restrict light and nutrients to affect the diatoms, you will affect your plants.

You can divide the mechanisms that your plants attain nutrients from into two components; the water column and the substrate. Your water column is ‘dosing’, your substrate is your ‘availability’.

During startup your substrate will provide a nitrate and phosphate source for the plants rooted in the soil. They are also mobile nutrients so the plants can utilise them. You can omit them from your water column dosing initially to keep the water column as devoid of nutrients as possible; a leaner water column makes things difficult for diatoms at startup but your plants still have availability from their roots. This is far from an exact science and more a case of tilting things in the plants favour.

You do require some water column dosing though. Daily potassium and micros into the water column is enough to get you through the first couple of initial months without issue. Large water changes through the first month is very helpful. Using floating plants to clean up the water column is also very useful. After this initial period multiple changes to the setup will have taken place and dosing more comprehensively will be beneficial.

If you’re using tap water it’s useful to get a water report if you haven’t done so already. Gives you an idea of what is going in the tank prior to any dosing.

Temp = 24oC.

If you....

really don't want to add anymore CO2 as the tank already resembles a jacuzzi as it is.

Then you could try dropping the temperature down to 22C. Will allow more gas to dissolve into the water without having to change any of your other settings.

25ltr water change per week (2 x 15 ltr buckets).

If using tap water, any reason not to change more? If you’re going to reset the water column then in for a penny, in for a pound.
 
Thank you all for your kind and knowledgable replies. They are greatly appreciated and I will try to answer all your questions below.

Flyfisher
1) As of today I have started dosing with the Evolution Aqua "The aquascaper" plant food with N&P at 5ml per day and will continue to use it.
2) I have George Farmer's book and followed his advice on multiple water changes in a new tank for the first 4 weeks to the letter. I didn't lose any of the livestock that I transferred over.
3) I think I will keep the photoperiod as it is and see how things pan out with increased CO2 and proper liquid feed but I know now to reduce it if needs be.
4) I always have 2 diffusers, so i can immediately swap one in while the one from the tank. Looking at the one in the tank today it looked a bit dirty and the bubbles weren't a fine mist, so i swapped it with the spare and straight away the bubbles were a lot finer. I also turned up the CO2 a bit and the drop checker is now a nice green colour (see photo below).
5) Unfortunately I was trying to do this tank on a budget and with the lid that came with it, I can't fit lily pipes. I did buy an Eheim Lily pipe attachment for their externals but it is far too big and ugly for this tank. I might try it again as an experiment but it couldn't stay in the tank long term.

Erwin123
1) As mentioned above, following all your advice I have ditched the Tropica premium and will use the Evolution Aqua stuff that I bought for the foreseeable, at 5ml per day. George Farmer's book has been a great help but I still found it a bit confusing as to what exact dose i should be adding to my tank each day. That's why I chickened out and just used the premium though, as I now know, this just brought on a different set of problems.
2) I had just always assumed that all tanks look better with a black background, but now you mention it quite a few aquascapes have a clear background and now I see why. Unfortunately I painted the back of the tank with black blackboard paint, which I instantly regretted. I saw someone suggest it online but it's not perfect.

Geoffrey Rea
1) Yes, I think it makes sense when you mention that I have probably passed beyond the "initial period" and its time to start properly dosing for a high tech tank. That's why I bought 2 bottles of the Evolution Aqua liquid feed at set up but at the slightest hint of excess algal growth I "bottled it", so to speak, and went back to using the standard Tropica premium, which was a bad idea.
2) Temperature. I am kinda old school and assume all standard tropical tanks should be in the 24 - 26oC. I love watching the Green Aqua videos on You tube and I know they run their tanks at 22oC. I just associate Neons with Rams and they like it a bit hotter (26?) so I would find it hard to have any tank lower than 24oC minimum. I know it obviously works from what you and Balazs at Green Aqua says but it is a step too far for me at this stage. To my mind 22oC seems almost cruel for the livestock. Anyway after swapping out the dirty diffuser the bubble mist does seem to be finer.
3) Water changes. I have had aquariums most of my life but have developed back issues in the last few years (the joys of middle age!) and so can sometimes struggle with water changes. I figured I could cope a weekly water change of no more than 2 buckets so that's why I went with this size of a tank. I reckon there is about 60lts of actual water in the tank so a weekly 25lt water change is just over 40%. Not ideal but it's the best I can do in certain weeks, if my back is playing up.

Thank you all again for taking the time to help me out, and putting me hopefully on the right path again.

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It's amazing how easy it is to hack saw away the lid to get some better filter pipes in. I did it on my ledy80 and it just fit stainless ones
 
Also get a pump for water changes I got one £20 of amazon so you can definitely get cheaper. I use 10mm hose so there is not too much flow. I have an old hose pipe connected to an old filter intake for draining. I do 50% water change on my 57 ltr 2 x 90 ltr and 100 ltr in less than an hour. Including cleaning the glass. If I start to trim or do filters I can be at it a day 🤣
 
Hi Kevin,

I might have a look then to see if I could fit a lily pipe in one way or another, though I think it would have to be a stainless steelsteel one like yours. A reckon a glass one would last until the first water change with me before it ended up in bits.
My tanks is a bit far away from a sink to try the water change method you mention, plus it sounds like a recipe for me to flood my kitchen lol.

However I might try and get a long hose and spare intake as I could run the dirty water to a nearby outside drain, which would save my back a bit of carrying.

Cheers

Alan

ps you deserve some sort of Olympic gold medal for doing your water changes in 4 tanks in under an hour
 
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The ticket to happiness is finding a way to remove and refill the tank without lifting a drop of water.

Removal is as simple as a cheap hose and a 12mm eheim shepherds hook.

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Refill can be a mixer tap, Hozelock mixer tap connector and a hose as well. Just get another shepherds hook and cut it to the height just above where you intend to regularly drain.

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Dechlorinator in before the refill and the lot is done with no back strain.
 
Post #5 Geoffrey Rea explains a lot . My new set up sand front soil at rear looked brilliant for first three weeks no CO2 . So l added CO2 and move from Tropica Specalised once a week to EI daily. Diatoms arrived and been a real pain so looking for answers too much too early column fertilser makes sense. @Flyfisher neons are fine at 71 /72 degees its Cardinals like Rams prefer it warmer
 
Thank you both again. The next time I am in my local fish shop I will definitely check to see if they have Eheim 12mm inlet pipes.

I have kept up the 5 ml per day dose of the Evolution Aqua plant food, as well as upping the CO2 even more ( see photo below). While the plants are showing better growth, it looks like I am maybe getting slightly more algae, but it is early days and I won't start panicking yet.

From tonight I have now dropped the photo period of one of the tubes down to 5 hours, with the other still at 8 hours. They are 10W each so 20W LED for a 60 ltr of water in the tank might be a bit much, seeing as most of my plants are easy. Hopefully reducing one to only 5 hours should help. i have also dropped the temp a smidgen as well.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

Alan

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Hi Alan, we've just set up a pump for water changes for our 100L aquarium this week.
So just in case you're interested, we've bought this Eheim 100 pump at SwellUK (£28):

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And 10m of hosepipe of 16mm diameter on eBay (£17):

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We drain 50% of the tank in less than 2 minutes (into the bath drain). Then we unplug the pump, take the pump to a bucket in the bathroom sink, turn on the tap, plug the pump and fill up the tank again in 3-4 min. Back saving, life changing :);)
 
Hi Marcia,
Thank you for your reply and apologies for my belated reply. I did indeed buy a cheap hose & an Eheim shepherds crook inlet pipe forwhen I am doing a water change. It definitely helps my back!

I still haven’t taken the leap to running a hose and pump directly from my kitchen sink and because of that my water changes still take far too long lol
Unfortunately my plant growth is still a bit underwhelming. I have Hygrophila siamensis 53b in the tank, which is meant to grow like a weed, yet it is growing incredibly slowly and is covered in green algae, even with CO2 and N&P plant food. I am beginning to wonder if it the light set up from the 2 AQUAEL led lights not being up to it.
Thanks again

Alan
 
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