A couple of questions re: EI daily dosing (thread @ top of p

Discussion in 'Aquarium Fert Dosing' started by Cro, 17 Jun 2009.

  1. Cro

    Cro Member

    Messages:
    103
    I have my water report and would like to know what 04 is and what "good GH" (I assume General Hardness?) is.

    UK or US Gallons?

    DI = Distilled water?

    TMG?

    Would I still have a rest day on water change day as you do for full EI?
     
  2. ceg4048

    ceg4048 Expert/Global Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,952
    Location:
    Chicago, USA
    Hi,
    What plantbrain meant to say was that if you are using tap water and if it is already high in macronutrients such as PO4 then you can get away with adding less KH2PO4. The same goes for nitrate. If you water is high in NO3 the there is less need to add KNO3. Likewise, if your water supply is high in GH then of course there is less need to add GH Booster. Good GH is anything higher than about 3 or 4 degrees. This will mean that your calcium and possibly your magnesium levels are sufficient.

    Forget about UK gallons. Everything is referenced to US units. However, this difference is not that much of a big deal.

    DI typically refers to DeIonized water, but again, it doesn't really matter whether you use DI, distilled, RO or tap.

    TMG is the old name for TPN. The initials are for Tropica Master Grow renamed to Tropica Plant Nutrition. These are marketing expressions for the same product.

    Daily means 7 days per week so a rest day cannot be relevant. Also a daily dosing regimen is full EI, it's just that if you are dosing 7 times per week of the same levels versus 3 times per week each dose of the 7 day regimen is smaller than each dose of the 3 day regimen. The total amount added on a weekly basis will be similar.

    Cheers,
     
  3. Cro

    Cro Member

    Messages:
    103
    Hi ceg4048,

    Thanks for the response and answers to my questions. I'd like to clarify my first questions though.

    What is P04? The report I have from my water company doesn't list it, it does have S04. :?

    What is GH? Is it General Hardness?

    What is "Good GH"? I.e. what value constitutes good? My water company state;
    Hardness as calcium (milligrammes per litre) 140.4
    Hardness as calcium carbonate (milligrammes per litre) 351
    Hardness as degrees Clark 24.43
    Hardness as degrees French (°f) 35.1
    Hardness as degrees German (°dH) 19.937
    Hardness as mmol/l (millimoles of Ca) 3.51
     
  4. chris1004

    chris1004 Member

    Messages:
    565
    PO4 is an abreviation for phosphate which is required as food for the plants. You will find that PO4 is very misundrstood in general, most of the popular advise (and incorrect) will tell you that po4 causes algae. Yes po4 will feed algae compounding an existing problem, but without enough po4 the plants are under-nourished and will trigger the onset of algae in the first place.

    The different listings for hardness that you have shown are mostly just being shown in different units of measure except for the calcium ones. Most hobbyists use the german dh for referance (gdh), the higher the number the harder the water, (also refered to as general (gh) or permanant hardness) as opposed to carbonate hardness (also fefered to as kh or temporary hardness).

    For the most part though the main importance is to match the water hardness to the fish species being kept as the vast majority of plants are unaffected by water hardness. As ever there are one or two exceptions to this generalisation though.

    At 19-20dgh your water would be considerd moderatly hard but would probably naturally drop a few degrees after a week or two anyway. It really depends on what you wish to do as to what water parameters are ideal but a gh of 19-20 (probably 14-16 after a week or two) isn't anything to be worried about for general run of the mill fish/plant keeping.
     
  5. Cro

    Cro Member

    Messages:
    103
    Thanks for your reply Chris.

    I am a little confused why TPN is used, I thought doing EI meant you didn't need to buy the expensive ferts. :?
     
  6. aaronnorth

    aaronnorth Member

    Messages:
    3,955
    Location:
    worksop, nottinghamshire

    it is, however some people use liquid ferts as they dont want the "hassle?" of making up their own dosing regime. And some are scared but the people who usually buy liquid ferts have small tanks, or think that the salts are actually deadly chemicals when there not.
     
  7. JamesM

    JamesM Member

    Messages:
    1,913
    Location:
    The BIG End, South Wales
    I think in this case, TPN is used as a trace only alternative.
     
  8. Cro

    Cro Member

    Messages:
    103
    Cheers Aaron.

    This whole thing is doing my head in now lol, just when I think I'm getting it.....

    Now I'm a reasonably smart bloke but the array of different information for EI seems to make it very confusing. I have downloaded 2 different calculators but can't work out what to put where, and where to get half the information from in the first place. I'd like to go the route of daily dosing to promote gradual growth, I do 30% water changes a week (which seems to fit in well with wanting gradual growth?) and I have quite a heavily stocked tank fish wise. I will be doing the planting in a couple of weeks and at present the plants are in a nursing tank, being fed large amounts of bottle ferts (Seachem plant growth pack) to get them to a reasonable size for my larger tank.

    My tank is a Rio 240
    2 X 39W T8 lights with reflectors on for 10 hours per day
    1 X Eheim 2071 filter running spray bar
    1 X Eheim 2073 filter running spray bar
    JBL M601 pressurised Co2

    I have a glass diffuser on order to replace the horrible plastic reactor, and a decent glass drop checker also to better monitor the co2 levels.

    I will be adding 1 or 2 power heads shortly also.

    I will be having a reasonably planted tank, with lots of bog and Mopani wood but still maintaining plenty of room for the fish to swim about.

    Can anyone help me with what mixture I need to make up, and how much I need to dose please?

    I was going to go with;
    Doubling the amounts shown (I should triple as my tank is 63 gallons but I don't want heavy/fast growth) but the adding TPN+ daily confused me. There's also no mention of traces. :?
     
  9. Cro

    Cro Member

    Messages:
    103
    Ah, that answers the trace bit then TYVM. :D

    So doing EI as alternate days ferts/traces with a rest day on Sunday when I do the water change now looks the best way to go.

    Do I just need to get KN03 - KH2P04 and trace elements? I have pretty hard water so shouldn't need any GH booster.
     
  10. Simon D

    Simon D Member

    Messages:
    460
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Excuse my ignorance but what it TYVM?

    All these acronyms are doing my head in!

    Thank You Very Much??

    Q: What is TLA?

    A: Three Letter Acronym
     
  11. Cro

    Cro Member

    Messages:
    103
    Asked.
    And answered. :D
     
  12. chris1004

    chris1004 Member

    Messages:
    565
    Hi Cro, I have split your post into the four points above to clarify answers to the questions.


    1/ Use either of the calculators but IME don't try to cross referance the results as for some reason they don't quite tally. I like chucks planted tank calculator as its simpler to use but I wouldn't worry to much about grams, using teaspoon doses is far simpler and there is a huge margin for error. As for where to get the information from in the first instance refer to point 4.

    2/ Maybe for what you want to do PMDD could be a better dosing regime. EI is largly about attaining full on growth of the plants which in itself should deter algal growth.

    3/ Sorry it doesn't work this way. The plants can only grow to their lowest limiting factor (light,food,co2) so if you give them more ferts it will make no difference if you don't also increase the lighting and the CO2 other than to stave off defficienties.

    4/ Read this and copy doses for a good starting point:-

    viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1211

    Most if not all of your questions will be answered in this very informative tutorial. In fact you would do well to take in anything Yoda (aka Clive/ceg4048 :D ) has to say.

    Good luck, Chris.
     
  13. Cro

    Cro Member

    Messages:
    103
    Thanks again for your help Chris, I will read the linked tutorial today.
     
  14. aaronnorth

    aaronnorth Member

    Messages:
    3,955
    Location:
    worksop, nottinghamshire
    yeah, that tutorial is better for working out a dosing regime :D

    i am dosing for a 240l tank and here are my mixtures:


    18g KNO3 > 250ml
    5g KH2PO4 > 250ml

    put these into 1 bottle and dose 40ml x3 per week.

    23g trace > 500ml
    dose 40ml x3 per week

    these mixtures are made to last 1 month.

    or If you want seperate bottles:

    36g KNO3 > 500ml
    10g KH2PO4 > 500ml

    40ml of both x3 per week
     
  15. Cro

    Cro Member

    Messages:
    103
    Cheers for that Aaron, that is just what I need.

    I notice no GH booster, do you have hard water?
     
  16. aaronnorth

    aaronnorth Member

    Messages:
    3,955
    Location:
    worksop, nottinghamshire
    KH 8
    GH 15

    thanks
     
  17. chris1004

    chris1004 Member

    Messages:
    565
    Hi Aaron, why aren't you dosing magnesium via mgso4,magnesium sulphate?
     
  18. chris1004

    chris1004 Member

    Messages:
    565
    Cro,

    Note before/ N=nitrogen, Po4= phosphate, K= pottasium, Mg= magnesium, SO4= sulphate.


    I dose for a 250Litre tank the following.



    For my NPK ferts (nitrogen, phosphate and pottasium) otherwise known as a macro solution, I mix:-

    6 teaspoons of KN03 (pottasium nitrate (otherwise known as saltpeter))
    3 teaspoons of KH2P04 (mono-pottasium phosphate)
    18 teaspoons of MGS04 (magnesium sulphate (otherwise known as epsom salts))

    The above is added to 600ml of RO or distilled water and dosed 50ml 3 times weekly, Sun, Tues and Thurs.


    For my Trace element solution (otherwise known as a micro solutio or csm+b) I mix:-

    http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.p ... cts_id=546

    2 teaspoons -200ml RO or distilled water and dose 25ml twice a week, Mon and Wen.




    Its very easy to increase/decrease doses as required as you go along if you see signs of deficientsies. The truth of the matter is that there are no two tanks the same and the ideal fert mix for each tank will differ but ultimatly as long as you have excess of the ferts available to the plants at all times then your good to go. I seriously wouldn't worry about measuring things out in grams though its far to complicated and very unnecessary for EI, IMO.

    Regards, Chris.
     
  19. aaronnorth

    aaronnorth Member

    Messages:
    3,955
    Location:
    worksop, nottinghamshire
    there isnt any need for it, i already have enough Mg in my tap water, as do most people. :)
     
  20. chris1004

    chris1004 Member

    Messages:
    565
    Aaron, EI recomendations are that a maximum uptake of around 10ppm should be supplied (ref Clives tutorial). I would question wether you have that level in your tapwater and also why Clive would recomend the addtition of mgso4 if its not required. Still you've been at this planted tank thingy a lot longer than I have so who am I to question your methods. Ultimatly your the man on the spot so to speak and if your plants were showing deficientsies (how do you spell that damn word :? ) then you would see this surely. So I can only assume that in your case you have it covered, do you allow for the nitrates and phosphates in you tapwater aswell?
     

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