A few shrimp questions . . .

david boden

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You're spot on there J----another advantage of a pile of smooth pebbles is that they get easily covered in biofilm.
As we are told, the females try to deposit the shrimplets wherever the biofilm is abundant for them , so the babies can stay there, safely hidden and feed.
I use small piles of jet black beach pebbles in my own tanks , although I've never tried attaching plants to them ---it's a worthy idea though .
 

Wookii

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Have you seen Green Neon Tetras? Fairly similar to Cardinals, but substantially smaller.
Smaller even than regular Neons, plus also they are usually healthy, whereas most regular Neons available are very poor.
Thanks for the tip, they do look very nice, and might be a good smaller alternative to the Cardinals.
 

Wookii

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Hi @Wookii

I recently read that the only safe fish to have with cherry shrimps is the Otocinclus. I think I know where I read that so let me check it out. I had Celestial Pearl Danios (CPDs) with my cherry shrimp and I have good reason to think that the CPDs ate the tiny shrimplets.

JPC
Thanks - I think it all really depends on where we draw the line at ‘safe’. I can wholly accept that should the shrimp breed, the new born shrimplets will be a meal for virtually anything that swims.

From what I read, Cherry shrimp can be pretty profilic, so as as much as much as I would be pleasantly surprised to find them breeding, by the same token I would want them swarming out of control - so I guess some sort of self-balancing happy medium, whereby new of-spring replace aging adults is the ideal.

What I want to avoid is any fish that actively pursue, harass and predate on the adult shrimp, wherever possible.
 

Wookii

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One quick tip I thought sensible came from a bloke who successfully combined shrimp with moderate sized fish, i.e. fish that would definitely eat shrimplets but probably not adult shrimp: He established the shrimp first using a pile of roughly walnut sized pebbles as a 'hatchery/shrimplet nursery' on one side of the tank. He had various anubias and java fern attached to some of the larger pebbles so it didn't look at all bad. This created such a solid and impregnable sanctuary for the shrimp to breed, the colony grew despite what must have been quite heavy predation after the fish were introduced.
Some years later when he dismantled the tank he discovered that the shrimp had established an extraordinarily complex 'warren' (for want of a better word) within the pebbles.
I'm not keeping any shrimp at the moment, but when I do, a large pile of pebbles is top of my list.
Thanks for the tip, that’s really interesting to read. Do the shrimps actually dig tunnels then?

Whilst we probably won’t have space for a pile of pebbles, there will be a centralised area where the bog wood and rocks intersect that will provide quite a tight warren of cracks and crevices. In addition I’ll be planting Lomariopsis lineata around this area which should form even more habitat for baby shrimp to hide in.
 

Onoma1

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Have you seen Green Neon Tetras? Fairly similar to Cardinals, but substantially smaller.
Smaller even than regular Neons, plus also they are usually healthy, whereas most regular Neons available are very poor.
But, if these fish had a moto it would be 'run away'. They only venture out of the undergrowth when there isn't the slightest chance you will be in the room/ building.
 

JMorgan

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Thanks for the tip, that’s really interesting to read. Do the shrimps actually dig tunnels then?
I'm sorry I don't remember the exact description, I think it was Lucas Bretz talking on one of his you tube channel live streams a few years ago. But yes I think the pebbles were resting on substrate, so when he tore down the tank, he found they'd dug out the substrate to some extent . . . there was no video of it that I remember, but I was struck by his enthusiasm for what he'd found, as well as the common sense of giving them a 'fortress' where they could be completely safe. It's like they say about shy and timid fish - the more places they have to hide the more you'll see them. With shrimplets I'm guessing - especially with what David says about biofilm on the pebbles - that considerably more will grow to be big enough not to get eaten.

I also saw or read that thing about otocinclus being the only truly shrimp safe fish, but I think that's too broad a generalisation, especially given the popularity of 'nano' sized fish these days. I even have a friend who's combined a (presumably pretty laid back) betta splendens with cherry shrimp and he often gives away his 'culls' (poor colour), the little colony produces so many, but when I tried to duplicate his set up with my daughter's betta a few years ago, I just ended up with a fat, happy betta, no shrimp and an unhappy child. Thankfully she was at an age when she blamed the betta rather than me. Unfair of course but as a parent one learns not to argue.
 

alto

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I highly recommend you and your son watch this video from Filipe Oliveira’s home tank

Note how bold the shrimp are - that behaviour is in part due to being part of a substantial colony (I’d not be surprised if there are 100-200 (or more!) shrimp of varying ages in that tank) and good health (why I suggest being careful of where shrimp are purchased, ask questions :))



It would be nice if ukaps requested permission to add this link as a Sticky to the Inverts Forum (when looking at shrimp, capture some photos or video and zoom ;) )

Freshwater Shrimp Diseases by Aquarium Creation


Re Guppies and Endlers, there are many hybrids commercially available now - some are more “guppy”, some are more “endler”
Some guppy’s are bred for larger size, these males can also be quite large, others are much smaller - note that mature female endlers and female guppies are both quite large

Aquarium Glaser with a few variants (Frank Schäfer deserves special recognition for his outstanding photography)
https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/tag/endler-en/

https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/?s=Guppy


While commercially bred cardinal tetras can be quite large, Seriously Fish lists 20-35mm for wild caught cardinals (and is accurate IME), 20-30mm for (wild) neon tetras, 15-25mm for (wild) green neon tetras ... buying small juveniles that you grow out yourself will usually result in more “normal” sized fish (tank bred or wild caught), fish that are listed as L or XL on farm lists have often been “encouraged” to that size :(
(an experienced shop should know which sort of fish they are importing)
When feeding fish, they should have only slightly rounded bellies after feeding, not distended after an all-you-can-eat-buffet ;)
 

MJQMJQ

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Hi @Wookii

I recently read that the only safe fish to have with cherry shrimps is the Otocinclus. I think I know where I read that so let me check it out. I had Celestial Pearl Danios (CPDs) with my cherry shrimp and I have good reason to think that the CPDs ate the tiny shrimplets.

JPC
They are large and so will eat them.Anything that fits inside its mouth is food.Also depends on fish personality too!
 

jaypeecee

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They are large and so will eat them.Anything that fits inside its mouth is food.Also depends on fish personality too!
Hi @MJQMJQ

When you say "They are large...", I assume that you are referring to the CPDs and not Otocinclus? I ask because Otocinclus are often larger/longer than CPDs. But, being Danios, CPDs have very small mouths.

JPC
 

Iain Sutherland

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Shrimp colonies can be kept with a majority of aquarium fish however there are some clear areas worth noting...

- if a fish is hungry then it will eat whatever is available so keeping fish well fed helps reduce predation.
- once a colony is established then it will generally out breed predation assuming the above point is adhered to.
- adult shrimp are less likely to be predated than babies and juveniles even with some larger fish.
- due to the above point some small fish are particularly successful at decimating even well established colonies.. I'm sure there are more but CPD's , badis badis, checker barbs, tiger barbs, betta (personality dependant) and likely a good handful more.
- heavily planted tanks with a good amount of hardscape will always provide enough places for the shrimp to multiply. It's not uncommon to only see adult shrimp out and about with bigger fish but when you break a tank down hundreds of babies appear.

Personally I've had adult Congo tetra, lots of barbs including cherry and checkers, denisonii barbs, butterfly cichlids, adult neons and numerous other tetra all maintained with growing shrimp populations. A lot of these are bigger fish who have little interested in adult neocaradina such as cherry shrimp.
If you look though many journals on this forum and videos on YouTube you will see a plethora of tanks maintained with healthy colonies of shrimp and fish.

It will always be a bit of a gamble especially when starting with a new tank, new shrimp colony and new fish... it's not unheard of that a group of fish that were no issue last someone kept them a few years ago adding them to a tank and they are total gits.


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Conort2

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I think the best thing to do aswell would be to let the shrimp settle and start breeding that first, that way if you do lose the odd one to predation you can be sure there are plenty more. I keep fish as large as cherry barbs and danios with my shrimp and they don’t bother them most of the time however if a small shrimplet is stupid enough to swim up into midwater it will get eaten. Although they quickly grow to a size though where the fish are no longer a threat and are lightning fast when they need to be. I started with 6 tangerine tigers and probably have a few hundred now. As mentioned make sure you have sufficient cover like a lump of moss or stones and it will give the shrimp somewhere to multiply. Mine take cover in Monte Carlo and other fine leaves plants I have until they’re big enough to take on the fish.

cheers

Conor
 

Wookii

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Thanks very much for the input guys, its much appreciated. I think it's just going to be a case of 'suck it and see'. I'm confident there will be a quite a few hiding places for the shrimp, and the shrimp will be added at least a week before we consider adding any fish (other than some Oto's), so they should have some time to get comfortable and find places to hide before other fish start to be slowly introduced. The fish we introduce will likely be small juveniles to start with anyway - even the nice Endlers we saw at the LFS were at most 10mm long. Likewise if we do go for a shoal of cardinals or other tetra, we'll likely select smaller fish from those available.
 

jaypeecee

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I have, yes. Why do you ask?
Hi @Wookii

I read through your thread and just wasn't sure if you'd kept Otocinclus before. Had that been the case, I was simply going to give you a few cautionary tips about their sensitivity, their need for algae/established biofilm, etc. But you'll be familiar with all that. That was all.

JPC
 

Wookii

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Hi @Wookii

I read through your thread and just wasn't sure if you'd kept Otocinclus before. Had that been the case, I was simply going to give you a few cautionary tips about their sensitivity, their need for algae/established biofilm, etc. But you'll be familiar with all that. That was all.

JPC
Thanks, yep the tank is running now - cycling prior to adding plants at Christmas (the plants will be a present for my son which is why I couldn’t add them from day 1) so the tank will have been running for about 5 weeks before we consider adding any Otos. I may even wait until we add the Corys (final addition once the carpet plants have started rooting - maybe toward the end of Jan) before adding them, I’m not sure. It depends how badly we suffer from any algae once the lights are added (also a Christmas present for my son!), if we do have an attack I may have to press the Otos into service earlier - they used to do a tremendous job when I’ve had them in the past, of helping remove algae.
 

Wookii

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I highly recommend you and your son watch this video from Filipe Oliveira’s home tank

Note how bold the shrimp are - that behaviour is in part due to being part of a substantial colony (I’d not be surprised if there are 100-200 (or more!) shrimp of varying ages in that tank) and good health (why I suggest being careful of where shrimp are purchased, ask questions :))



It would be nice if ukaps requested permission to add this link as a Sticky to the Inverts Forum (when looking at shrimp, capture some photos or video and zoom ;) )

Freshwater Shrimp Diseases by Aquarium Creation


Re Guppies and Endlers, there are many hybrids commercially available now - some are more “guppy”, some are more “endler”
Some guppy’s are bred for larger size, these males can also be quite large, others are much smaller - note that mature female endlers and female guppies are both quite large

Aquarium Glaser with a few variants (Frank Schäfer deserves special recognition for his outstanding photography)
https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/tag/endler-en/

https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/?s=Guppy


While commercially bred cardinal tetras can be quite large, Seriously Fish lists 20-35mm for wild caught cardinals (and is accurate IME), 20-30mm for (wild) neon tetras, 15-25mm for (wild) green neon tetras ... buying small juveniles that you grow out yourself will usually result in more “normal” sized fish (tank bred or wild caught), fish that are listed as L or XL on farm lists have often been “encouraged” to that size :(
(an experienced shop should know which sort of fish they are importing)
When feeding fish, they should have only slightly rounded bellies after feeding, not distended after an all-you-can-eat-buffet ;)
I’ve just noticed in that Filipe Oliveira video, that he has a dwarf puffer in that tank. I would have thought that would be a dead cert for a shrimp muncher?
 

Iain Sutherland

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I’ve just noticed in that Filipe Oliveira video, that he has a dwarf puffer in that tank. I would have thought that would be a dead cert for a shrimp muncher?
Puffers aren't quick enough, they are probably one of the safer choices...

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

alto

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Like Bettas, some dwarf puffers appear to be active (dedicated :oops:) shrimp hunters, some don’t

If you can convince your son to give the shrimp a couple months, they’ll often be breeding by then :)
 
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