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After the Move

Barbara Turner

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Prime interferences with test kits

Interesting comment about the prime, I've been doing 70% water changes every 2 /3 days. So chances are that I may not be able to detect the ammonia with my test. I'll read up on the seachem website when I get chance.

The fish are happy after aerating the water over night.

There are four suggestions of what could be wrong, please shout if I've missed anything, problem is that none of them are a good fit.


Ammonia from substrate

Would this still be being released after a month?

Adding a double dose of prime didn't help. The water changes fixes the problem that fits.

Would the bubbler manage to lower levels in a few hours?

Chlorine / chlorlamine in water

I also always add prime, which suggests the problem isn't with the water being added.

After a water change the fish were happy for 48 hours

I would also expect that when I added extra prime it didn't fix the issue.

High Co2 levels

I dropped my co2 levels right down till the drop checker is a dark green / blue and still the fish were gasping at the top.

I also repositioned the drop checker incase it was in a dead spot.

Low o2 levels

All the plants have been moved so growth and photosynthesis will be slower, I've also added a few more fish.

The timing doesn't really fit though, I would have expected all the fish to be struggling first thing in the morning, not mid day.





H zosterfolia is a fast grower, but not quite so easy to grow with the form shown in Tropica’s photo

I wish my H zosterifolia looked like the photo, the leaves are far more spaced out and less compact.
I was going to wait till it hit the surface before chopping it in two and replanting the tops.

Is there any way to make it more dense without reducing light?
 

Barbara Turner

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Rather than trying to test for ammonia (or CO2), you can look at the fish gills and gill cover, if the gill cover is slightly raised and the gills purple or dark red, the fish is suffering from high ammonia (or CO2) levels.

Will this be permanent damage, or will it only show when the fish are at the surface?
 

alto

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The timing doesn't really fit though, I would have expected all the fish to be struggling first thing in the morning, not mid day.
This could be consistent with increased CO2/low oxygen
Generally it’s assumed that in a planted tank with injected CO2 that there is an overall net production of O2
BUT this is really only likely in a tank densely stocked with fast growing (metabolism) plants
(re my earlier comment about stoned fish in planted tanks)

Looking at your recent photo, I feel that the carpet is still struggling & overall (especially, actively growing) plant mass is fairly low ... it maybe that “CO2 in” is outcompeting O2 production
Various algae’s are also known for sequestering oxygen from the water column rather than increasing oxygen availability
This is also true of most bacteria - a good reason to remove the muck and debris from your filters & tank bottom


dropped my co2 levels right down till the drop checker is a dark green / blue and still the fish were gasping at the top.
In contradiction with above, this suggests the issue may NOT be CO2 related

Of course in reality, there is going to be more than a single process occurring in the tank at any time - the overall net effect may still, simply, be reduced oxygen availability

If you’ve checked the Prime (lack of) effect with more than a single bottle of Prime, I’d suggest that ammonia is not the issue
BUT this doesn’t rule out nitrItes - you need 5-10X dose of Prime to sequester nitrItes (I don’t recall Seachem research details though Dr Greg Morin had released them on the APD ... this info was also available on Seachem's website back when it had the technical data pages and articles)

I also still wouldn’t rule out possible substrate effects based upon the email reply - ask them what tests are done before substrates are released to market, how tests are carried out, conditions of test tanks etc



Try to test water immediately when you see fish gasping at surface - unfortunately it’s not cheap/easy to home test for available oxygen but you should be able to reduce the chances of ammonia and nitrItes (I don’t know how comprehensive your ammonia testing has been, or how long you waited after Prime addition to conclude it wasn’t helping)

Despite some rather jaundiced views expressed on this website, I’ve found most test kit errors to be human operator rather than kit chemistry limitations
(I ran standard curves, “unknown” and test samples with multiple kit brands and chemistries - given the negativity expressed about hobby level kits on forums, I expected poor performance, instead most kits performed to specifications)

Hobby grade kits are not terribly accurate or precise but most are sufficient within 10% (& certainly 20%) of the predicted values

While postulated tank ions and organic compounds MAY interfere, most are far lower than the measured/documented interference levels needed for notable impact upon the chemistry methodologies employed by hobby grade kits - these particular (well documented) chemical methodologies were chosen for their impervious, stolidly dependable nature ;)

Of course one may purchase a faulty kit, but this is seldom the more probable scenario
Some (more expensive) kits also include positive standards by which kit chemistry (& your technique) may be checked

Kits that have been left open or stored incorrectly, especially after opening, are more likely to produce errors - depending upon the specific kit - one US hobby club asked several members to use a variety of kits testing several solutions (sorry I don’t recall which kits specifically) ... result, even with 2 yr old (open) kits, human error was the determining factor behind incorrect results

btw I’m not suggesting that you go out and purchase a load of kits ;)
As this situation has been ongoing for over a month - I think - I’d be sceptical that this issue is biological “cycle” related
(it may be, but it wouldn’t be my first guess)

If you don’t have a nitrIte kit, I might pick up one of those, Seachem MultiTest Nitrite/Nitrate includes a reference standard - again I suggest reading through Seachem FAQ & website, perhaps even send your query into Seachem Tech Support (pm me first if you’d like and I’ll (likely) ask you a load of questions to clarify so that you avoid any rote responses ;) )
 

Barbara Turner

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Hobby grade kits are not terribly accurate or precise but most are sufficient within 10% (& certainly 20%) of the predicted values

I think hobbie kits provide a indication, accuracy
I haven't been very impressed with the results from my JBL pro scale.
These two tests were from the same sample of water taken about 5 minutes apart.
No3 jumps from 0 to 18

It sounds from the seachem website like adding prime will make a high value safer that what it shows. It won't hide ammonia.

https://www.seachem.com/support/for...512-prime-and-false-positive-ammonia-readings

Could I use the seachem pH alert tester to get a better idea of co2 level. I've got two pH pens that are useless / dangerously inaccurate.
 

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Barbara Turner

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As discussed in the earlier post
Screenshot_20181221-141455_JBL PROSCAN.jpgScreenshot_20181221-141441_JBL PROSCAN.jpg

I don't think the plants are producing enough o2 for The fish and shrimps, I suspect the hard water reduces the pH swings that I would expect to see..

Replanting all the plants is always going to slow growth down and therefore reduce 02 levels.

I think I should turn the air pumps on every night and top up the o2 in the water every night at least until the plants have grown.

I'll keep doing 70% water changes twice a week incase I'm wrong.
 

alto

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I’ve used Seachem pH alert but only for trends

I’d suggest Investing in a Hanna pH pen
https://hannainst.com/products/testers/ph-orp.html

They do a nice job of reporting specifications for each tester, note that most pH probes only have a 6month warranty, this is a reasonable “lifespan” expectation depending upon use/handling though you may extend this substantially through proper care and storage

There are a lot of cheap pH pens on the market that promise whatever sells :rolleyes:

I suspect much of the JBL Proscan inconsistency is due to changes in light and phone camera reaction/perception - it’s a great idea but manufacturer should have included a light box option for accuracy/consistency
 

Barbara Turner

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Hey All
Another week in, Addiding the Eheim 400 air pump and twin air diffuser has made a massive difference to the fish there now far happier.
I currently runs the pump for 14 hours every night, on max.
I've had to adjust the co2 so it comes on an hour earlier to compoensate for some of the extra co2 i'm loosing over night.

Great to be back to relaxed weekly water changes.

20181228_220306.jpg

On my travels I bought some big willow moss (fontinalis antipyretica var. Gigantea) It will be interesting to see how this grows as there seems to be very little information online.

20181228_220615.jpg

My H zosterifolia is looking very leggy, reading online about general plants could this be down to a lack of blue light?
I have a DIY light and currently running 7 hours cool white (6500k) and 4 hours full spectrum (pink) see colour spectrums (both on together at lunchtime)

I'm wondering if things would improve if I changed to 7 hours white and 6.5 hours full spectrum (Both on together), My only concerns is this will also boast the red spectrum so could make things worse.

I'm not too concerened about algae as I don't get any growing anywhere,even the glass is clean.
8479-3ea0f7ac1af9_grande.jpg cool.jpg
 

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dw1305

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Hi all,
On my travels I bought some big willow moss (fontinalis antipyretica var. Gigantea) It will be interesting to see how this grows as there seems to be very little information online.
That is a new one for me as well, but I like the look of it.

Looking at the photo it doesn't look like a Fontinalis spp., they have pointy "leaves" in threes, your plant looks to have rounded leaves in two rows?, but it might just be the camera angle.

cheers Darrel
 

Edvet

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lack of blue light
boast the red spectrum
Please don''t worrie about spectrum, effect of spectrum on growth are nil. A photon is a photon for the plants and it will use it''s energy as good as it can, the whole spectrum is a way of manufacturers to get you to buy their products ( most often the problem is "to much", not "to little"). Leggy growth has to do more with circulation and CO2 then spectrum.
Pick the light you find pleasing not the one which promises the most:oops:
 

zozo

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Hi all, That is a new one for me as well, but I like the look of it.

Looking at the photo it doesn't look like a Fontinalis spp., they have pointy "leaves" in threes, your plant looks to have rounded leaves in two rows?, but it might just be the camera angle.

cheers Darrel

Me too never heard of the Giant version before.. I'm growing Fontinalis already for years, thought it was the regular one and it already grows quite big if conditions are right. Easily 20 to 30cm.

https://www.flowgrow.de/db/aquaticplants/fontinalis-antipyretica-var-gigantea
Acording description it only says it grows large, but actual size is not given.. It grows even larger?..
fontinalis-antipyretica-var-gigantea-4f7a02a693302.jpg

Its stems are also rather woody in structure and feel. Thin brown and though..

But looking at both pictures, the gigantea doesn't differ in leafshape, it is equaly ponty as the other variety. I could be wrong but it more looks like a <Plagiochilla spp>. in this picture. Also it's green looking seemingly thicker stem doesn't add up with fontinallis..
20181228_220615-jpg.jpg
 

Barbara Turner

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I think most of the lights used have far more blue light than required. So the colour spectrum makes less change but the research below would definitely suggest we are stunting growth using lights with a 6500k spectrum.

As you say for an aquarium light, how the tank looks like looks is far more in important than a hydroponics setup.

I'm looking at changing the LEDs to a RGB setup with a similar spectrum to ada solar, the extra red will hopefully make the red plants look redder.
But I'm sure running probably close to 40% blue light won't improve plant growth.

graph_3_large.jpg

I started reading up about it and there is some interesting research relating to hydroponics and colour spectrum, I previously thought that green light wasn't used for photosynthesis but this isn't the case, its only slightly less efficient than red.

The other conclusion are
  • You need at least 12% Blue light to prevent stretching
  • As you increase Blue light over 15% the stem length reduces but yield also reduces
Please don''t worrie about spectrum, effect of spectrum on growth are nil


Stem-Length.jpg

Yield-dry-mass.jpg


https://www.migrolight.com/best-grow-light-spectrum/

That was my first thought as well, that it was a "Leafy Liverwort".

It was a reasonably homemade looking label and container so could be wrongly identified.
 
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sparkyweasel

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As we won't know what it is, I would suggest trying a bit emersed as well, as a back-up.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
and I'm not sure, even with the plant in front of me.
It looks even more Leafy Liverwort like in that photo.
Will Leafy Liverwort, survive underwater superglued to some wood?
I've not grown it, but I think the Plagiochila sp. @zozo <"linked in earlier"> should be OK.

I've seen a few different Leafy Liverworts in the UK, but they were all really small and not aquatic.

If you want some standard Fontinalis antipyretica I have plenty. I think it originally came from the Lily Ponds at Bosherston, but it is a common moss and I've picked up bits from the Bristol Avon at Chippenham etc.

cheers Darrel
 

zozo

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Acording available databases there are i believe 3 plagiochila spp. to be found in Europe. I seem to be in the goldy zone regarding my country. Yet unfortunately, never found any of them. :(

But according the available data all plagiochila sp. grow in rather moist/wet places. :)

Best guess, the worst that can happen submersed, it changes morphologically.. Than you have to go with wath you get..
 
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Barbara Turner

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o be found in Europe. I seem to be in the goldy zone regarding my country.

I'm not sure if it makes any difference but I bought it from plantica in poland. I've just checked there website and can't see either for sale, but it was the last pot.
 

zozo

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I realy wouldn't know, but i'm not suprised you got it from there... In Poland there are quite some different (aquascaping) sources finding/importing all kinds of new wierd mosses. It seems to be moss whalhalla over there, i also wonder where the hell does it all come from and what their source is. Likely because it's smack dab in the middle of Europe with long arms reaching from east to west and south. :) If you want strange mosses (and or uncommen fern sp.) Poland is indeed the place to be.
http://novina.pl/mchy-2/
They also have a facebook page introducing new finds that are yet not for sale.
https://www.facebook.com/World-of-Aquatic-Moss-508732719244216/

Lots of mosses don't get properly identified and get a fantasy name, for example Plagiochila sp. Cameroon that is in the trade. Yet not identified but likely imported from.

Another maybe possible resambling leafy liverwort sp. could be Solenostoma tetragonum that one was sold by Dennerle in invitro cups for some time. Also this moss changed it's name 2 times before it finaly was classified as Solenostoma sp. in 2009
https://www.flowgrow.de/db/wasserpflanzen/solenostoma-tetragonum

Very common for actualy mosses found growing emersed in wet places. When placed submersed they stretch and grow in strains. I once managed to grow a mnium sp. (i think) submersed and it stretched out in cm long strings completely changed its emersed appearance. Same as stringy moss does a moss you can find in your garding looking completely different and not stringy at all.
 
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Barbara Turner

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Poland is indeed the place to be.
http://novina.pl/mchy-2/

I had no idea there were that many different types of mosses, It would be fun to do a micro aquascape only using mosses

I was pretty shocked when the petshop at tescos in poland had two fully planted display tanks running co2 and a full range aquascaping products for sale. I get the impression that aquascaping in Poland is alot bigger than in the UK, More money, more competition, ends up in there being a far bigger range.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
I had no idea there were that many different types of mosses
There were some interesting looking plants and names.

We really have no idea how many mosses there are available, or what their actual scientific names are. The same moss might be sold under multiple different common names, or a common name might cover several different species of moss.

Part of the problem is that most Bryophytes are only definitively identifiable when they produce capsules, and most don't do this under-water. <"Benito Tan"> had a go at the mosses that were available early in the millennium, but since then loads more have become available.

For European mosses it might be possible to look at the <"leaves and their cell shapes"> to get names, because really good floras exist. But for mosses collected in the rest of the world it is really "pick a name".

cheers Darrel
 
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