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Anyone figured out H.Pinnatifida?

I add 4tsp after water change, should give me about 13ppm mg. I was thinking just to double the standard to 20ppm. If i go below 13ppm my s.repens get dark veins and my pogostemon helferi goes a little pale.


What do you recommend increasing to? 30ppm and then rest from water change?

I don’t really look into numbers. I’m not a chemist and hate calculating ppm. I would dose everything as you were doing so far and increase the dose of your kno3 by 20%. Only adjust one thing at a time and keep changes for at least few weeks before coming into conclusions.


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I don’t really look into numbers. I’m not a chemist and hate calculating ppm. I would dose everything as you were doing so far and increase the dose of your kno3 by 20%. Only adjust one thing at a time and keep changes for at least few weeks before coming into conclusions.


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Cool that's what i have been doing really, making one change a month/per mix.

I will up kno3 amd report back 👍
 
Yes, extra Mg you cant overdose Mg.
Hertfodrshire has lowish mg in the tapwater.!
Yes, increase Potassium and Nitrate....just do 50% water changes for a few weeks.
 
Yes, extra Mg you cant overdose Mg.
Hertfodrshire has lowish mg in the tapwater.!
Yes, increase Potassium and Nitrate....just do 50% water changes for a few weeks.
Nice one. I will make a new batch at the weekend and report back in a couple of weeks and see if i can resolve both my threads 😉
 
Be careful not to exceed with micros. There are so many reasons for pinholes. You can have a huge amount of macros, K and N included, but an excess of heavy metals that will either cause harm by itself or by interfering with K uptake.
 
Be careful not to exceed with micros. There are so many reasons for pinholes. You can have a huge amount of macros, K and N included, but an excess of heavy metals that will either cause harm by itself or by interfering with K uptake.
Not only heavy metals, according to Mulder's chart (frankly speaking not very popular among folks using EI) K uptake may be interfered by Ca, Mg and N.
And while not being sure about N, I'm 100% sure there is dependancy between Mg and K because I've tested few times various levels of those nutrients and have found high amounts of Mg quite problematic.
And I actually think Sammy has (to my standards) exceptionally high amount of Nitrates and Magnesium in water column (among other ferts).

My H. Pinnatifida from <this post> has never seen more than <10ppm of K> weekly (at 2ppm Mg) and was developing holes only when I've stopped fertilisation for 10 days or more.

@Sammy Islam if increasing won't work, maybe it's worth to decrease some nutrients and see how it goes?
 
Be careful not to exceed with micros. There are so many reasons for pinholes. You can have a huge amount of macros, K and N included, but an excess of heavy metals that will either cause harm by itself or by interfering with K uptake.

I have yet to see it!

5F62CD44-30AF-47EF-90BC-8AB3323772E3.jpeg

8B23C3E7-2259-4F9A-BF01-2A55495FCEAE.jpeg

1B7A16E3-7ED2-406E-BCC4-3E76531CF9A8.jpeg

5EEA7F60-1570-4538-A609-02BD8977C6C6.jpeg


This tank hasn’t had a waterchange in quite a few months (it’s 50L and I had to top it up yesterday with about 6L of RO to replace evaporated water, the tank is covered to reduce evaporation). Three times a week this tank receives a generous dose of Micro and a BioCO2 supplement on alternating days fortified with 1ppm NO3 and 1ppm PO4 (fortified since last waterchange as depleting N and P values were taking its toll, I believe I’m still a little short on N and P due to the hungry Vallis).

This is the Micro -

530FC625-CB6A-4CBC-BEF5-C7627CC613A7.jpeg


The TDS of the water after the last waterchange was about 170, given plenty of time to accumulate metals the TDS now sits around 260. As you can see none of the metals in the mix are intentionally chelated excepting the iron, they are free to react in whatever way they will in the water column, whether they have long term accumulative availability or short term matters not as the dose is enough to satisfy the plants day to day.

Whenever the plants look unhappy (melting new growth) I know my Micro dosing bottle has run out!

Comments on the Warts’n’All pics welcome.

Btw the Żubrówka hiding behind the empty Micro bottle doesn’t get dosed to the tank!

:)
 
Not only heavy metals, according to Mulder's chart (frankly speaking not very popular among folks using EI) K uptake may be interfered by Ca, Mg and N.
And while not being sure about N, I'm 100% sure there is dependancy between Mg and K because I've tested few times various levels of those nutrients and have found high amounts of Mg quite problematic.
And I actually think Sammy has (to my standards) exceptionally high amount of Nitrates and Magnesium in water column (among other ferts).

My H. Pinnatifida from <this post> has never seen more than <10ppm of K> weekly (at 2ppm Mg) and was developing holes only when I've stopped fertilisation for 10 days or more.

@Sammy Islam if increasing won't work, maybe it's worth to decrease some nutrients and see how it goes?
Initially that was the plan for the micros. I'm making a mix this weekend so will observe my plants and decide from there. I will definitely be reducing micros over time and see if it helps.

I don't think i can have no3 problems as theres definitely more than enough, i add 20ppm, my water change must bring in 20ppm, and the fish/plants/filter must produce more on top.

I think it is all to do with very hard water and CA interferance. My CA is about 130ppm out the tap, Gh22/23, KH12/13, PH7.2(7.9 degassed). I have tried using less MG but i actually think i need to increase it if i dose less than 13ppm mg my p,helferi becomes pale overall and seems to interfere with iron uptake, and my s.repens gets green bands/veins.
 
@X3NiTH approx 200 TDS and healthy Vallis? I'm all ears! None of my Vallis survived for a long time at this density - they've melted sooner or later.
What's the dKH?
his tank hasn’t had a waterchange in quite a few months
I think we could form some kind of "no water change" militia. I've quit water changes in two of my tanks approx 5 months ago (one hosts juvenile Amano shrimp, they're approx. 3 months old since morphing from salt water state) and results are... hmmm... interesting. I'm wondering if we need water changes at all in heavily planted tanks.
 
I just wanted to share a < recent post > of mine that was grounded in < this paper > that Darrel shared.

Before we can say that ions interfere with the uptake of other ions - we need to look at HOW the plant itself uptakes ions.

Thanks, i have reduced micros this month so hopefully will see some improvement. I don't think it's a light problem as most of the leaves under the light are healthy, it's mainly the old growth that's effected.

Only old growth - maybe we should ask why a plant melts?
1) The leaves are incompatible for the environment
2) There are not enough nutrients (CO2, macro, micro, light) to support the current growth, so we have a redistribution of resources OR a melt of leaves because the plant doesn't have enough energy to support them all.
3) Toxicity? Though I am not entirely sure what this "means" in our context ... though I would suspect the entire plant would die if it was exposed to toxic levels.

Just some thoughts that I had!

Josh
 
This was interesting:

A defense against toxicity. But we can still kill a plant with heavy metals even if it has defense mechanisms.

On nitrate: Comparing the effects of high vs. low nitrate on the health, performance, and welfare of juvenile rainbow trout Oncorhynchus mykiss within water recirculating aquaculture systems

Their definition of low nitrate vs high nitrate is "below"
1609688333580.png


There are clearly negative effects from Nitrate.
1609688522285.png

But it's about concentration and exposure - toxicity will be based on concentration in that cell which is regulated by diffusion and relative concentrations in the water column -- not to mention the plants natural ability to moderate itself as seen in the toxicity paper.

You can ballpark your nitrate in the tank without tests. Keep a plant that goes red under limitation, use a floating plant, use your water report and calculate what you pour in, then add a bunch for decay, but what if you run purigen? Your plant mass is constantly changing and as a result, your test measurement from yesterday is now incorrect. How do you account for uptake of nutrients? What if you change your light intensity? What if you add more of another nutrient that was limited and you are able to uptake more nitrogen? What if you plant something? What if you change 90% water? What if you change 100% water with RO and use TDS as a measure? Why would we bother testing at the moment in time -- perhaps an APEX machine with constant monitoring of levels ... that would be very cool.

If you want to change no water, then you HAVE to moderate your dosage - otherwise you will kill absolutely everything.

EI is not about nutrients.

EI is about (and probably more):
1) High photosynthetic rates and healthy plants
2) Good maintenance - we are the caretakers
3) High O2 levels via gaseous exchange
4) High turnover and distribution of water

The ideology suggests that if we do all of the latter, then our fish are happy. I don't have enough experience to do this with discus and so on ... but maybe in the future.

Nitrate availability will drive photosynthetic rates - everything is made of out of nitrogenous bases (DNA, proteins - which form the foundations to cell division) ... so it makes a lot of sense (but I haven't looked at any papers on it .... yet).

If you take empirical evidence and consider those who utilize nitrate limitation ... they don't "limit" (but they don't need to pour it in either) phosphate or potassium for a reason - ATP and potassium's role in photosynthesis. Will phosphate and potassium cause issues at "toxic" levels ... of course ... even as they reach that threshold. And what the heck does limit mean? SURELY it is in excess of what the plant needs, otherwise the plant wouldn't be able to grow the next moment that the water passed its leaf.

Further, we cannot be throwing words like lean, excess, etc down without a relative point - no one will ever dose "properly" as it would require unique injectors at the plant to respond to the PRECISE mol required for every single chemical pathway.

The primary issue is language - the notion that "excess" nutrients did not cause algae was brought because people limited nutrients to the detriment of their plants. People get tired of explaining Liebig's Law, biochemical pathways, etc - AND people don't want to learn it either ... they just want an answer.

Everyone on this forum is trying to learn - as am I - and it might be worth us compiling documentation about each of the "methods" that are used with their pros and cons of each.

I think it is more important that we don't subscribe to a method - instead we learn the system.

In terms of the pinnatifida and @Sammy Islam ... in theory, if it is toxicity - and it may be - then increasing calcium or cranking your light will help since calcium and micros use the same NSCC and light will increase the growth rate. OR - of course - reducing your micro dosage. I am interested to see if reducing micros exclusively helps your situation ... as that is what is most important.

EDIT: Just want to add the following - https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nph.15283

If the plant has decided to switch to photorespiration due to inadequate carbon availability or ability to gain carbon (i.e. nitrogen driving carbon requirements too high or flow or whatever), then it will require more energy to do so and compensate. That said, it may need to sacrifice older growth. And pinholes may be it's way of doing so. Further, reducing light will reduce the demand of all nutrients -- and so if it is not toxicity, then a reduction in light or increase in CO2/nutrient distribution will work.

Or maybe not - Effect of Carbon Dioxide on Photorespiration on JSTOR
 
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I’ve been thinking about pinholes and metal toxicity again this week and why I rarely see it anymore despite me continually adding them and not changing water to reduce any potential accumulation of metals, so for confirmation I went deeper down the Rabbit hole and found a ‘Purple Pill’!

Whether Its the right tree but the wrong bark who knows but here goes!

That said, it may need to sacrifice older growth. And pinholes may be it's way of doing so.

And to accomplish this it will use plant derived Ethylene to signal which tissues to sacrifice. If there is excess of Ethylene in the plant it will cause premature senescence wherever the tissues cannot cope and it triggers collapse of the cell and its surrounding tissue, this would be pinholes at the minimum. Some plants cope better than others when dealing with excess ethylene, some are very sensitive to it. In order for the plant to mediate excess ethylene it performs the Fenton reaction with Iron which releases Hydroxyl and Hydrogen Peroxide into the tissues which can then react with the Ethylene and render it neutral. Plants are usually able to rid themselves of Ethylene through their tissues as a gas (it’s stored in tissues as a gas) quite easily but inundation poses a problem where the solubility of Ethylene in water is around 4x that of Oxygen so increasing Ethylene in inundated plants signals tissues to elongate and break for the surface. As long as the plant is able to expunge enough Ethylene to not trigger senescence when it doesn’t reach the surface it will remain healthy (not dead). As long as there is Iron availability it should be able to moderate some of the excess Ethylene via the Fenton reaction. So Iron is crucial to the plant especially if it’s underwater, run out of Iron and plants will obliterate themselves. I fear I’m scratching the surface here and that there so much more to this.

@Sammy Islam
There is one possible source of excess Ethylene you are adding to the tank on a regular basis and I believe that’s in your traces as EDTA, your hard water makes the Iron unavailable as you know which is why you are dosing the Iron with a more appropriate chelate, if you are still dosing Iron EDTA with your micro mix then when it drops the Iron it will chelate with Calcium (non mobile and used for adding structure to growing tissue). Plants can metabolise EDTA (just another long chain carbon molecule) and when it does it releases the Ethylene into the tissues surrounding wherever it ended up and where there is a failure to moderate the Ethylene the tissue will fail (if it’s localised it’s a pinhole), as a consequence of this any gasses contained within those surrounding tissues will be released taking the excess Ethylene gas with it, the pinhole will serve as an exit point for further gas release until the surrounding tissue is healed and the plant stops leaking, pearling to obliteration.

From experience I stopped getting pinholes and leaf obliteration on my Buce (it’s my Canary in the coal mine) by omitting EDTA entirely from my Micro, whether in soft waters or hard waters I think it’s a plant which is sensitive to ethylene stress, the plant is very good at extracting nutrition by any means possible whether there is abundant nutrients or not. In pictures of Buce in situ living as an epiphyte in its natural rheopilic habitat you can clearly see that Pinholes and Gapingholes are a thing which may be a consequence of excess periods of inundation and build up of ethylene in its tougher thicker tissue rather than a consequence of too little or excess/toxic levels of Metal nutrition, the only way it survives excess ethylene and inundation in unfavourable conditions is to release built up gasses via a pinhole, senescing a whole leaf when there is no or only brief relief from a period of inundation would be catastrophic to the plant, thankfully Ethylene gas in plant tissues is able to gas off all excess within around a minute of the plant being released from inundation.

Other consequences of excess Ethelyne is leaf chlorosis also the plant releasing antioxidants to deal with the products of the Fenton reaction trying to moderate the excess ethylene, Anthocyanin is one of those antioxidants which is possibly why your Rotala gets redder throughout the day and that switching to respiration in the dark period enables it to normalise it’s tissues.

Maybe all the plants need is a daily inundation siesta for a few minutes!

Ethylene-promoted Elongation: an Adaptation to Submergence Stress

Ethylene Action in Plants

Absorption and Breakdown of lron- Ethylenediamine Tetraacetic Acid by Tomato Plants

Review and safety criteria in advanced oxidation processes in vegetables, mediated by hydroxyl radical

:)

Ps To answer the query regarding my water parameters and the Vallisneria, the dKH and dGH is around 8 and 8.

Pps Id love to test for Ethylene levels but at $8k for a gas analyser maybe not!
 
Thanks guys it's getting too scientific for me 🤣 does anyone know of a micro mix that doesn't contain edta fe? Wish there was a trace mix i could use and just add my own fe (dtpa and eddha)?
 
Thanks guys it's getting too scientific for me 🤣 does anyone know of a micro mix that doesn't contain edta fe? Wish there was a trace mix i could use and just add my own fe (dtpa and eddha)?
I know you can get sulphate chelates for Zn and Mn. Not sure where. I also read that this helped some other people on other threads.
Maybe all the plants need is a daily inundation siesta for a few minutes!
I have to delve right into the rest of the post but this is an interesting idea ... give the plant some time to catch up?!?!

Perhaps we have several options to solve the issue:
If it is metal toxicity from heavy metals:
1) Increase light intensity
2) Reduce micro dosage

If it is due to the accumulation EDTA:
1) Reduce micro dosage
2) Change micro chelate
3) Decrease photoperiod
4) Increase light intensity
5) Add siesta for catch up

If it is respiration:
1) Increase CO2
2) Reduce light intensity

Let me know if anyone thinks something is missed.

Hmmm ... I also think we need to look at how photodegradation of the chelate works. How does the light affect EDTA - not only the bond it has with the metal.

Josh
 
Hi all,
I looked through it - sort of. That thread's a mess . .
I know what you mean, there is a lot of comment, but not that many conclusions.
I for one don't want high nitrates. Fish don't live in high nitrate levels so if it can be taken down it should.
I'm the same I look on the plants as primarily a technique for <"improving water quality">. I'm not interested in optimal plant growth, I ideally want the <"plants growing slowly in nutrient depleted water">.

One advantage of Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) is that it can persist at very low nutrient levels, but has the capability to grow extremely rapidly should greater amounts of nutrients become available. A submerged plant could still be carbon limited, but that isn't an issue with a floating plant.
I remember the time of Albert J Thiel and his books promoting the use of Wet/Dry filters for reef aquarium. It took them a while to realise that they were just nitrate factories.
It is the "nitrate factory" aspect that I really like about <"wet/dry trickle filters">.
As far as I see it the reef hobby is slowing moving to no water changes,
Yes, that is a big difference for us, water changes are cheap and non-problematic and we have access to angiosperms that are much more effective at nitrate removal when compared to algal scrubbers etc.
For those that are interested my tank parameters I'm testing are:

Nitrate : 1 ppm
Do you use an <"ion selective electrode">? It was partially the difficulties in <"testing accurately for low levels of NO3-"> that led me towards the <"Duckweed Index"> initially.

cheers Darrel
 
I'm still undecided whether I want to do this . . .

I suppose the question would be: how much is all this worth to you?

I know you didn't want an answer to that question, but just to make the point that, to me, this forum is founded on the basis of the free sharing of knowledge between its members, without judgement - it is what makes it so valuable. Everyone who has knowledge and experience to share adds positively to that wealth of information, no matter the techniques they choose to use. This forum has been a great asset to me since I discovered it, and I learn something new almost every time I visit here - that can only continue to happen if people are willing post up their experiences - good and bad, and however varied in approach.

The journals section in particular gives a user scope to really go into depth on their methodology, and lay it out clearly and succinctly in way that others might be able to follow if they choose to plot a similar path, or use similar techniques, which is why I suggested it.
 
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Hi all,
I have to add that one of the posters I enjoyed immensely is Marcel G.
I enjoyed his posts too, and I think he had something useful to say and it was a shame he left. I'd say <"the same"> for @JamesC.

We do need to be a <"broad church">. I've belonged to other forums which have imploded due to <"lack of efficient moderation"> and some <"fairly combustible posters">.
........ this forum is founded on the basis of the free sharing of knowledge between its members, without judgement - it is what makes it so valuable. Everyone who has knowledge and experience to share adds positively to that wealth of information, no matter the techniques they choose to use. This forum has been a great asset to me since I discovered it, and I learn something new almost every time I visit here - that can only continue to happen if people are willing post up their experiences - good and bad, and however varied in approach ........
I'd very much agree with this. We need people posting the good, the bad and <"the ugly">, it is only if we are honest that knowledge and understanding can move forward.

I'm sure many us have different motivation, goals, and beliefs. In the context of UKAPS I really don't care what a persons political opinions, religious beliefs, sex, gender etc are, it isn't really relevant to the forum.

cheers Darrel
 
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The journals section in particular gives a user scope to really go into depth on their methodology, and lay it out clearly and succinctly in way that other might be able to follow if they choose to plot a similar path, or use similar techniques, which is why I suggested it.
I'm not keen on 'me too' posts, but on this occasion I would like to support @Wookii 's request. Having spent the last 18 weeks ruthlessly plundering over a decade of insight from this forum, the threads that are most valuable are those where the conventional wisdom is challenged. It forces reflection and debate. And the more data points that are logged by us (in terms of the different approaches we take, and their outcomes) the more opportunity we give to readers in another decade's time to translate the growing body of unstructured data we are compiling into something structured and consequently applicable. I'm attending an ML talk on a similar question next week - "In modern supervised learning, there are a large number of tasks, but many of them are associated with only a small amount of labeled data. Even though each individual task cannot be meaningfully trained in isolation, one seeks to meta-learn across the tasks from past experiences by exploiting some similarities. We study a fundamental question of interest: When can abundant tasks with small data compensate for a lack of tasks with big data?"

With that in mind l register my support for Wookie's request for your data points to be logged in a journal.

Cheers,

Simon
 
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