AS900- restart and rethink.

dw1305

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Hi all,
Was hoping they wouldn't melt, being in vitro plants, couldn't bring myself to chop the leaves off when planting, just seems wrong
I think you were right, I wouldn't remove the leaves from any in vitro plant, they <"won't have a rhizome"> like a traditionally grown Cryptocoryne would, so leaf removal is likely to leave you with just a few roots (which can't regenerate a new plant).

The <"rhizome (an underground stem)"> is the black structure in this image, and you can see the plants growing from the nodes of the rhizome .



cheers Darrel
 

SRP3006

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Hi all, I think you were right, I wouldn't remove the leaves from any in vitro plant, they /crypts.home.xs4all.nl/Cryptocoryne/Botanical/foliage.html']won't have a rhizome[/URL]"> like a traditionally grown Cryptocoryne would, so leaf removal is likely to leave you with just a few roots (which can't regenerate a new plant).

The /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizome']rhizome (an underground stem)[/URL]"> is the black structure in this image, and you can see the plants growing from the nodes of the rhizome .



cheers Darrel
Thanks Darrel, my decision wasn't based on any facts but good to know
Just best off letting them melt away and use a siphon as normal then to give them the best possible start. The 'normal' Cryptocoryne aren't showing any signs of melting yet, maybe they won't, we will see.
 

SRP3006

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What's the best way to deal with some melting monte carlo?
I'm worried if I remove it then I'll remove the bits that are growing/showing signs of life?

Whats the best approach?

Cryptocoryne pygmea has melted away but that's to be expected.
 

alto

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Did you add the shrimp horde?

I try to let them clean up any MC etc melt, though you can also try trimming the green stems and replanting (but often very short if TC and a challenge to plant after tank is flooded) or just push the clump deeper into the soil and hope the green bits carry on (this seems to work as long as melt has not gone too far)
Sometimes MC seems to fare much better when planted in very small discrete portions, space 1-2cm apart - if you notice the beginnings of melt when first examining the plant, increase this spacing so it can’t creep as easily between plantlets

In photo, I’d likely lift the portion that looks mostly melting, and carefully separate out the best portions (working in a bucket with water rather than dry) and replant those with some spacing

(I suspect that invitro plants are more prone to melt after warming too much during shipping - or at the shop: hot summer weather, warm shop, even warmer under display case lights)

Tank temp?
 
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SRP3006

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Did you add the shrimp horde?

I try to let them clean up an MC etc melt, though you can also try trimming the green stems and replanting (but often very short if TC and a challenge to plant after tank is flooded) or just push the clump deeper into the soil and hope the green bits carry on (this seems to work as long as melt has not gone too far)
Shrimp horde is slowly being added. They proved a little difficult to separate from the Amanos they don't just walk into the net and the Amanos are usually first to the 'bait' for any trap.

About 30 in the at the minute and I'll try to add plenty more tomorrow.
I'll try to push the monte carlo deeper into the soil and maybe remove some of the rotting parts hopefully without damaging the good parts. As you say it's a little tricky underwater especially as it's crammed between the rocks.
 

alto

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Cryptocoryne pygmea has melted away but that's to be expected.
I don’t know if you removed the melting crypt leafs or let them dissociate into the water column, but it’s important to remove that organic grunge (especially if any other plants are struggling)
 

alto

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especially as it's crammed between the rocks
You can also try just dumping more soil on top

As the plant melts, the stem releases between the dying bit and the green tip, and then you get tiny green portions floating - the extra soil can help anchor these bits and seems to help separate the dying from the green

Once you’ve good green growth, it’s easy to lift the plant and siphon away some soil (return soil to that perfect scape height :)) and replant the healthy portion
 

SRP3006

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I don’t know if you removed the melting crypt leafs or let them dissociate into the water column, but it’s important to remove that organic grunge (especially if any other plants are struggling)
They were really small leaves so I used a pipe slightly larger than a airline to suck away as much as possible followed by 2 80% on the bounce water changes.
All gone now, thanks to the shrimp as well.
 

SRP3006

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You can also try just dumping more soil on top

As the plant melts, the stem releases between the dying bit and the green tip, and then you get tiny green portions floating - the extra soil can help anchor these bits and seems to help separate the dying from the green

Once you’ve good green growth, it’s easy to lift the plant and siphon away some soil (return soil to that perfect scape height :)) and replant the healthy portion
I have inadvertently done this to several portions with my heavy handed blasting of the crypts with the turkey baster. Obviously trying not to loose too much soil through the gaps. I will follow your advice on this tomorrow. Thank you.
 

SRP3006

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@alto I will probably be adding sand and detail stones tomorrow so may add the Amanos too which should help..
 

SRP3006

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Two very large water changes, removal of the melting monte carlo and addition of the foreground sand.
Filter clean, prefilter was dirty but inside was spotless. Glasswork and pipe clean too.

Harlequins, more cherry's and about 20 Amanos added.
 

LondonDragon

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Starting to take shape and looking great already :) sand makes a huge impact straight away! Maybe I should get rid of my grass!! :rolleyes:
 

SRP3006

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Starting to take shape and looking great already :) sand makes a huge impact straight away! Maybe I should get rid of my grass!! :rolleyes:
Thank you, stems are just starting to poke up over the wood and the bolbitus.

Had 6? Amanos escape through the night last night, found them crawling along the floor, returned and seem fine. 2 of them had actually crawled from the dining room all the way to the other side of the house to my daughters play room and hid behind her play kitchen!!!! I heard
"daddy why are there shrimpys next to my kitchen"

Also the Harlequins seem particularly skittish for fish that were unphased in the previous tank. Had to pick up one of them from the floor, jumped out whilst I was watching TV

I've dropped the water level by about 5cm but I'm not sure what else I can do?

The cherry's have been fine, otos too. So very odd.
 

LondonDragon

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I had a similar issue with my Amanos and the Checkered Barbs when I introduced them to the tank! Have lost 4-5 Amanos and 3 Barbs. The Ottos, SAE, Odessa and Cherry Barbs no issues!
Hence, I had the CO2 issues as I lowered it right down to almost nothing and still happened for a couple of weeks. I have since gradually brought it back up again over the last 4 weeks, and things have been OK, so not sure either!
 

alto

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Why the expectation that livestock won’t be impacted by a completely new and strange environs?

(Unlike fish that come from uneasy/stressful shop tanks and may appear to give a huge sigh of relief at the upgrade, your livestock are coming from a comfortable/established place)

When moving fish to a strange rimless tank, always drop water level at least 5cm - it’s such an easy accommodation :)
If fish are moving from a non-CO2 environment to a CO2-enriched aquarium - increase surface agitation for the first few days to 2 weeks (you can gradually reduce surface agitation but continue to return to this overnight)
Note you might also reduce light intensity somewhat - depending on lighting - or reduce photoperiod to ~6h (not including sunrise/sunset application as long as this is limited to ~30min at each end), the decreased water column height + decrease in CO2 may have more/less impact on plants ... depending

I often have 2 very similar (to me) established tanks running, and will occasionally move fish between tanks for various reasons, sometimes the moved fish carry on without a beat (at least to my limited senses), other times they seem ill at ease/somewhat stressed or even so apparently unhappy that I move them back to their original tank ... so this isn’t just about tanks being relatively newly established or sudden changes in CO2 or any of the water parameters we can easily measure (re test kits etc)

Hopefully your shrimp/fish will settle in with no more life challenging incidents
(I’d continue watching them for a couple weeks)
 

SRP3006

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I had a similar issue with my Amanos and the Checkered Barbs when I introduced them to the tank! Have lost 4-5 Amanos and 3 Barbs. The Ottos, SAE, Odessa and Cherry Barbs no issues!
Hence, I had the CO2 issues as I lowered it right down to almost nothing and still happened for a couple of weeks. I have since gradually brought it back up again over the last 4 weeks, and things have been OK, so not sure either!
I haven't adjusted my co2 at all, I increased night time aeration, didn't want to put my plants on the back foot. I figured it would take the fish a few days to get used to it after being in a non co2 tank in the garage with no 'passing traffic'

I haven't found any on the floor today, so maybe adding the cucumber helped or lowering the water level. Not sure but I know they will get used to the conditions soon enough.
I am thinking of adding (in the coming weeks) a shoal fish that inhabits the upper reaches of the aquarium that isn't bothered by traffic or movements near the tank. I'm hoping it'll calm the Harlequins down a bit.

Anyone have any recommendations?
 

SRP3006

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Why the expectation that livestock won’t be impacted by a completely new and strange environs?

(Unlike fish that come from uneasy/stressful shop tanks and may appear to give a huge sigh of relief at the upgrade, your livestock are coming from a comfortable/established place)

When moving fish to a strange rimless tank, always drop water level at least 5cm - it’s such an easy accommodation :)
If fish are moving from a non-CO2 environment to a CO2-enriched aquarium - increase surface agitation for the first few days to 2 weeks (you can gradually reduce surface agitation but continue to return to this overnight)
Note you might also reduce light intensity somewhat - depending on lighting - or reduce photoperiod to ~6h (not including sunrise/sunset application as long as this is limited to ~30min at each end), the decreased water column height + decrease in CO2 may have more/less impact on plants ... depending

I often have 2 very similar (to me) established tanks running, and will occasionally move fish between tanks for various reasons, sometimes the moved fish carry on without a beat (at least to my limited senses), other times they seem ill at ease/somewhat stressed or even so apparently unhappy that I move them back to their original tank ... so this isn’t just about tanks being relatively newly established or sudden changes in CO2 or any of the water parameters we can easily measure (re test kits etc)

Hopefully your shrimp/fish will settle in with no more life challenging incidents
(I’d continue watching them for a couple weeks)
Thank you for the highly detailed reply, much appreciated, my light levels are at 50% at the moment and only for a 6 hour photoperiod. I have increased surface agitation, but as you say the fish didn't like being moved. The harlequin that was struggling after jumping is swimming around as normal in the spare tank, after being upside down in the main tank.
 
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