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Bacteria in a bottle ?

S

ss_cov

Seedling
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15 Aug 2020
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Products like API quick start, seachem stability claim to contain live bacteria to help boost start a new tank.

Bacteria can live in water/hard surfaces so I don't question having bacteria in a bottle . But what I can't understand is they have a expiry date of several years so how does bacteria in those bottles survive that log without food?

Anyone with a microscope has done any testing ?
 
Hi all,
Melll said:
Don`t sit on the fence there, say what you mean
Click to expand...
I think I may lack diplomacy.

If I'd have known the trouble the <"cycling posts"> were going to cause I would have never started them. I've been thrown off forums, I've been threatened with legal action and I've been called a variety of names, not all of them very nice.

cheers Darrel
 
dw1305 said:
I think I may lack diplomacy.
Click to expand...

My Dad always told me that I suffered with Foot in Mouth syndrome, as I got older he told me never to apply to work in the Diplomatic Service :) I took his advice.

Threatened with legal action, :rolleyes:

I see having a hobby, any hobby as a way to learn, to hopefully improve and then to pass on any knowledge to others. Those people who are so rigid in their view point slow the learning curve down, they hold it back in my opinion.

So time for a cuppa and I`ve run out of Jaffa cakes :(
 
Hi all,
Melll said:
Threatened with legal action,
Click to expand...
Quite common apparently. I asked a microbiologist and he said there was nothing scientifically inaccurate in what I'd posted, we have a colleague who is a psychology lecturer (and used to write in the Guardian) and he apparently has a whole filing cabinet of them.

I showed him the letter and he said "just tell them to "p*ss off".

cheers Darrel
 
Hi @ss_cov
ss_cov said:
Products like API quick start, seachem stability claim to contain live bacteria to help boost start a new tank.

Bacteria can live in water/hard surfaces so I don't question having bacteria in a bottle . But what I can't understand is they have a expiry date of several years so how does bacteria in those bottles survive that log without food?

Anyone with a microscope has done any testing ?
Click to expand...

As you are specifically referring to bacterial starter products, these cannot survive in a bottle for several years. For kick-starting a tank, look no further than Tetra SafeStart. It was developed by a guy called Dr Timothy Hovanec who knows a thing or two about nitrifying bacteria! He advises using SafeStart within about eight months. I, and many others, have had a lot of success with this product. If you decide to try it, ensure that it's inside its expiry date and give the bottle a very good shake before use. The liquid from the bottle (containing the bacteria) should be cloudy, not clear. I have cycled tanks in one week using this excellent product.

BTW, you would need a scanning electron microscope to see some of these bacteria - got a spare £500,000?

There are other types of (heterotrophic) bacteria used in so-called 'sludge busters' or organic waste digesters. These can survive for much longer periods in an unopened bottle.

JPC
 
jaypeecee said:
Hi @ss_cov


As you are specifically referring to bacterial starter products, these cannot survive in a bottle for several years. For kick-starting a tank, look no further than Tetra SafeStart. It was developed by a guy called Dr Timothy Hovanec who knows a thing or two about nitrifying bacteria! He advises using SafeStart within about eight months. I, and many others, have had a lot of success with this product. If you decide to try it, ensure that it's inside its expiry date and give the bottle a very good shake before use. The liquid from the bottle (containing the bacteria) should be cloudy, not clear. I have cycled tanks in one week using this excellent product.

BTW, you would need a scanning electron microscope to see some of these bacteria - got a spare £500,000?

There are other types of (heterotrophic) bacteria used in so-called 'sludge busters' or organic waste digesters. These can survive for much longer periods in an unopened bottle.

JPC
Click to expand...

Hi JPC ,

Like some here I'm skeptical about those products. I'm no expert but a quick Google says you can see the shape of bacteria using a compound microscope of about x1000 magnification. And I guess that should be enough to test the hypothesis .

Maybe you meant electron to see them in great detail.
Regards
 
There has been testing done with these products - at least the older type versions (think Hagen Cycle under various (new) names), including some by T Hovanec back when he developed his version and was still writing up scientific papers (and long before his affiliation with Tetra)

Conclusion - Dr H’s product “cycled” aquariums much more quickly, but even Hagen Cycle reduced the “cycle” time by 2-3 weeks (this was put down to ineffective bacteria solution acting as a nutrient source for the newly identified “cycling bacteria”)
TH signed a contract with a suitable company and his special bacteria solution was available for some years - unlike the competition, this version was kept chilled and had a shelf life of several months (if you were in the US you could also order it direct from the company)
It experienced considerable success among African Cichlid keepers (where all fish are usually best added in one go for best chance of a successful community or shoal (eg, Tropheus sp.))

I sort of lost track at this point ...

Enter the Newest Cycle Story - and the various papers linked by @dw1305

Back to anecdotal “evidence” - Seachem Stability seems to work (proprietary ingredients but at least Dr Greg has the science ... though not sure how much control he retains as Seachem has become a commercial company in much the same way as the ADA story)
Note that like Dr H’s Original Stuff, Seachem Stability is also meant to be added WITH FISH - read through the Seachem FAQ page and loads of discussion on their Forum (which sadly looks to have been hacked again :banghead:)
though there are several shops etc that will recommend it be used in new aquariums with first livestock additions 4-5 weeks later ... again, anecdotally that seems to work alright too
I’m somewhat lost on that logic (again :lol:)

If you want to “jumpstart” a “cycle” in your aquarium, add some plants/hardscape/gravel/media etc from a running aquarium
(I don't get the objective of adding soil bacteria - which is pretty much Hagen Cycle products anyway, but sans dust - but there are plenty of folk that will swear by this method too ;) .... and perhaps it works in much the same way as Hagen Cycle :))
 
There are several ways to prepare bacteria for long term storage (including lyophilization, then addition of none to various solutions) - there’s a lot of investigative research and testing that’s done first to determine what for which, and then stability testing of the various promising options
Fortunately there are also textbook techniques that generally apply to classes of bacteria etc


An open access 2019 article on bacterial growth :)

Predicting microbial growth in a mixed culture from growth curve data
Yoav Ram, Eynat Dellus-Gur, Maayan Bibi, Kedar Karkare, Uri Obolski, Marcus W. Feldman, Tim F. Cooper, Judith Berman, and Lilach Hadany
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/29/14698
 
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Hi all,
alto said:
If you want to “jumpstart” a “cycle” in your aquarium, add some plants/hardscape/gravel/media etc from a running aquarium
Click to expand...
I think that is definitely the best starting place.
ss_cov said:
Anyone with a microscope has done any testing ?
Click to expand...
jaypeecee said:
scanning electron microscope to see some of these bacteria - got a spare £500,000?
Click to expand...
ss_cov said:
Like some here I'm skeptical about those products. I'm no expert but a quick Google says you can see the shape of bacteria using a compound microscope of about x1000 magnification
Click to expand...
I'm <"sceptical as well">, but things have moved on and it is the wrong bit of kit, you now need to be able to look for DNA sequences that code for <"ammonia or nitrite oxidation">.
alto said:
I don't get the objective of adding soil bacteria
Click to expand...
I think the reason it works (assuming it does) is that <"Ammonia Oxidising Archaea"> and "<COMAMMOX Nitrospira">, occur in nearly all natural situations, so when you get some soil you are actually introducing an inoculum. It is the <"one-legged Ginger Irishman">, he rides hops again.

What grows from that microbial assemblage, in the inoculum, is going to depend on all sorts factors, some of which aren't quantified yet. It looks like ammonia level is the chief driver, which means that products produced in a commercial bioreactor, with high ammonia loadings (again I'm going to guess it is all of them), aren't likely to be very suitable.
alto said:
some by T Hovanec
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I've got a lot of time for <"Dr Hovanec">, he has revised his work in light of recent scientific advances.

cheers Darrel
 
Never read Nathan Hills review before. In simple terms then hes saying it's more of an helpful aid to filtration than a stand alone product as claimed
 
Hi @ss_cov
ss_cov said:
Like some here I'm skeptical about those products. I'm no expert but a quick Google says you can see the shape of bacteria using a compound microscope of about x1000 magnification. And I guess that should be enough to test the hypothesis .

Maybe you meant electron to see them in great detail.
Click to expand...

Yes, you may be able to see the shape of whatever you're looking at - but I was oversimplifying things. In order to actually identify the species and strain of the bacteria, people like Dr Tim Hovanec also uses DNA probes and such like. If you have access to a compound microscope that will achieve X1000 magnification, I'd be interested in your findings. My old school microscope runs out of steam much above X300.

You can satisfy your skepticism simply by putting these products to the test. Two years ago, I did just this. And I went into some detail as I found the whole topic so fascinating. The key thing about Dr Hovanec's work was that he identified the bacteria responsible for converting nitrite to nitrate as Nitrospira moscoviensis. It had previously been thought that this was the job of Nitrobacter winogradskyi, this being used in other aquarium products. And now, we realize that another microscopic form of life - Archaea - play an important role in processing nitrogenous waste in our tanks.

So, don't take my word for it. And, fear not, I'm not an employee of Tetra. Nor do I have any financial interests in this company.

If you decide to check out SafeStart or any other product, there are a few basics to get right in the first place - starting ammonia concentration, water KH, pH, temperature and aeration - to name a few.

JPC
 
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ss_cov said:
Products like API quick start, seachem stability claim to contain live bacteria to help boost start a new tank.

Bacteria can live in water/hard surfaces so I don't question having bacteria in a bottle . But what I can't understand is they have a expiry date of several years so how does bacteria in those bottles survive that log without food?

Anyone with a microscope has done any testing ?
Click to expand...
Many bacteria are thought to have specialised dormancy cells, for example endospores or cysts, which enable them to survive unfavourable environmental conditions.

Either way save your money. Regardless wether these products work or not they are not needed. There is enough bacteria in the environment and on plant roots and leaves etc to inoculate any aquarium, and cycle it pretty quickly. Mine are usually safe for critters in a week or so.
 
Even tho it's not bacteria but fungi, but you can compare it with the freeze-dried yeast culture we use in the kitchen in the dough recipes. It can be stored for several years if kept dry, but once you add some food (moist and sugar) it revives and activates within minutes.

Pretty amazing resilient buggers those single-celled microorganisms... :cool:

They even can survive in space, thus flying around in it freeze-dried in a meteorite's core (Panspermia) isn't so far fetched after all. Also not really bacteria but microorganism, for the fun of it, look up the Moss Piglets survival abilities... You'll be completely astonished by what they can survive... We can nuke this planet to damnation, they still will be dancing as if nothing happened. They can survive close to absolute 0 temperature with ease. Simply come back to life after ages of dormancy. You have them in your fish tank, they love to live in mosses too. Again moss is also such a remarkable organism. Lately, scientist revived moss that was frozen in the arctic permafrost for about 30.000 years. :crazy:
 
It is remarkable how many microorganisms can survive extremes of temp, dehydration etc in dormant states. Moss piglets or water bears or Tardigrades as they are also known are amongst the planets toughest critters.

As for moss, fissidens is as tough as old boots. Not quite the same as reviving 30,000 year old moss but I've had it sprout and thrive on reused manzi that's been scrubbed, dried, and stored in the garage over winter for several months in freezing temps. Reminds me of an old thread... Give nature half a chance...
 
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