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Best way to raise GH/KH in a heavily planted tank?

Again, I think you need to do more research on this topic. There has been many interesting posts on here alone from Clive and I believe Darrel as well, I suggest you read them. Not to mention tons of discussion by Tom Barr and many other legends in the field. Much higher concentrations are used in the medical and other fields(disinfecting dental and medical tools for one and they go in your mouth and body right after) then we see in aquarium products and have been used safely for many years. You can find a bad msds report for almost any chemical but, concentrations mean a lot... Imo Excel or Glut in an aquarium specific concentration is less dangerous then most of the chemical/cleaning products in your house/garage. But hey, it's your tanks and your decision if you want to use it or not. It's also your decision to believe the alarmists or look at the science...
Hi @FISHnLAB I think you might have misunderstood the indent of my original comment on the topic. First off, I have done a lot of research on the topic back when I was using the product - there is not much hard science on the use of these products that you can take to the bank, unfortunately. I have seen/read tons of testimonials and discussions including posts from Clive and Darrel and others on the use of so-called liquid Carbon (including Seachem Excel). For some it works wonderfully for some it don't - placebo? perhaps, perhaps not.

I am not an alarmist, I am just pointing out the potential hazards of using these products (one of its uses is as an algaecide after all..) and will continue to do so. I didn't even touch on the potential hazards for fish and in particular invertebrates if accidentally overdosed - same goes for gaseous CO2.

Anyway, just to make it clear: If you follow the dosing instruction, make sure you don't get any bodily exposure to the product it's likely perfectly safe to use. If you are looking for a boost in plant growth and you find that the product works with no ill side effects? Wonderful!! :)

I have used the product myself for an extended period of time back in the day in two different tanks. I have had very mixed experiences from using it - anecdotal as it is. Not much, if any, increased plant growth/health and I've lost mosses and most likely Vallisneria sp. while using it - could that have been due to something else? unlikely, but not impossible.

Yep, one day I will likely end up there too but, for now I have decided there are more important things to learn and refine first. Not to mention I'm only looking at about $30 for a year's worth of fert at inflated aquarium AIO prices for the tanks I'm currently running. My plants are growing well and I haven't even got the fert dialed in yet. So, if this addition of Mg stops the veining in my hastifolias and I can get good growth with just an AIO and MgSO4 then I am done tweeking for the near future and am going to concentrate on other aspects of the hobby.
Sounds like a good plan! :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Hi @FISHnLAB I think you might have misunderstood my original comment on the topic.
I may have. Sorry if so, it's hard with only words sometimes. I tend to come off as harsh sometimes too and that isn't always my intention🍻.
First off, I have done a lot of research on the topic back when I was using the product - there is not much hard science on the use of these products that you can take to the bank, unfortunately.
There actually is plenty of hard science on the topic including many published studies. Glut has been used for decades to disinfect medical and dental equipment like I said. The same tools that immediately go into surgery and into ones mouth and body cavities including endoscopes. There have been reports of issues in techs that get exposed to it daily over many years but, exposure was in higher concentrations then we get in an aquarium specific product and over a period of years. Here, from the man himself...
SmartSelect_20221208-153322_Gallery.jpg

There are also studies into its use in the aquarium hobby. I believe one was done by Dr. Greg Morin but, I can't seam to find a link. Heck, you can easily do one yourself like many others have if you want to know.
I have seen/read tons of testimonials and discussions including posts from Clive and Darrel on the use of so-called liquid Carbon (including Seachem Excel). For some it works wonderfully for some it don't - placebo? perhaps, perhaps not.
Like I said, if you dig there are a number of people who have run blind tests with 2 identical tanks. It's pretty hard to deny it when in two identical tanks, with plants from the same in-vitro cup, one with and one without glut/excel and there is a clear difference in the tanks outcome.
I am not an alarmist, I am just pointing out the potential hazards of using these products (one of its main uses is as an algaecide after all..) and will continue to do so.
There is plenty of alarmism surrounding this topic all over the net, I wasn't trying to single you out specifically. Main uses in this industry maybe. These products have been used for many years in other fields safely. I believe a wise man once said it isn't the medicine that's dangerous but, the dosage...
I didn't even touch on the potential hazards for fish and in particular invertebrates if accidentally overdosed - same goes for gaseous CO2.
Yep, water conditioners, medicinal treatments, and even some health additives can be dangerous or even deadly to our wildlife if used incorrectly or in excess. I can tell you that there are examples all over the internet of people dosing glut and getting 5 or more years out of fish that others can't get half that from. Personally I think the hype around the safety of this topic is alarmist and unwarranted but, YMMV of course.
Anyway, just to make it clear: If you follow the dosing instruction, make sure you don't get any bodily exposure to the product it's likely perfectly safe to use.
Yep, and even if you get a little of this highly diluted and polymerized form, in the case of Excel, on you you will also be fine and likely are exposed to more badies and actual carcinogens changing your cars oil. Really, if you ever go to the dentist or the doctor you are likely already being exposed to small amounts of Glut and other disinfectants and biocides. Heck, some of the stuff they use to clean the fountain drink machines and other stuff at chain restaurants is regularly added to your diet(recently in the news, some have been poisoned by these products and are scarred for life).

Trying to avoid chemicals in this poison filled world we built is an exercise in futility imo. Half of the food we buy and eat is wrapped in carcinogenic products made from crude oil. Our pans are lined with antistick coatings that kill birds if overheated and get into every living thing in our ecosystems even though they were supposed to be banned years ago. Recently scientists have found microplastics(made up of carcinogenic crude oil) in every living thing they looked at, even deep in the living things organs. VOC's known to cause medical issues and cancer emit from nearly everything we own. I could go on, the point is we are already screwed so why worry lol...
If you are looking for a boost in plant growth and you find that the product works with no ill side effects? Wonderful!! :)
Yes, better plant growth is good😁. We all know the best medicine for that is CO2 but, it has its share of dangers to one's wildlife and self as well. It's on my try list though😂.
I have used the product myself for an extended period of time back in the day in two different tanks. I have had very mixed experiences from using it - anecdotal as it is. Not much, if any, increased plant growth/health and I've lost mosses and most likely Vallisneria sp. while using it - could that have been due to something else? unlikely, but not impossible.
Well, you saw the pics of my tank. That's three months of Excel and my moss is growing like stink. Maybe it was just a dosage thing? I do hear that some plants are definitely sensitive to it in higher doses though.
Sounds like a good plan! :)

Cheers,
Michael
Thanks. I hope it works😁. If not, I'll be back here for the thought provoking discussion. Thanks for your help Michael and I hope you aren't offended by our little debate😉👍.
 
I may have. Sorry if so, it's hard with only words sometimes. I tend to come off as harsh sometimes too and that isn't always my intention🍻.
No worries! :) 🍻

Trying to avoid chemicals in this poison filled world we built is an exercise in futility imo.
No one is arguing that the world we are living in is perfect... However, the beauty of a forum like this is that we only have to (or should...) concern ourselves with what we do in and around our planted fish tanks for the benefit of our livestock, plants and of course ourselves as hobbyists. A lot of the things we discuss here do not lend itself well to be extrapolated beyond what makes sense in the context of the hobby... when it occasionally happens, it usually gets really argumentative, boring, tedious and pointless for the community ;)

There are also studies into its use in the aquarium hobby. I believe one was done by Dr. Greg Morin but, I can't seam to find a link.
Please post when you find the link - I'd be interested to read it.

Well, you saw the pics of my tank. That's three months of Excel and my moss is growing like stink. Maybe it was just a dosage thing? I do hear that some plants are definitely sensitive to it in higher doses though.
Yes!

Thanks. I hope it works😁. If not, I'll be back here for the thought provoking discussion.
As you should! 👍
Thanks for your help Michael and I hope you aren't offended by our little debate😉👍.
Not at all mate and no worries! :)

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Just to give my 2c on Excel given I have used it fairly extensively in the past - I don't believe it is particularly beneficial for plants in the way it is advertised, as being a source of carbon. I think far more carbon can be added to a low energy tank by increasing gas exchange.

Where Excel and glut based products are really useful are as a pretty powerful algaecides. Spot dosing, particularly of stubborn red algae is very effective. I personally suspect that where there are anecdotal reports of regular Excel dosing producing increased plant growth, the actual effect being observed is a prevention of microscopic algal growth on the plants leaf surface promoting that growth, rather than any significant carbon acquisition. Ultimately good clean plant growth can be achieved in a low tech tank without the use of Excel, and that is the better path to follow.

In my own longer term use of Excel, I only really saw negative effects of the glut, particularly holes forming in Buce leaves: Holey Buce Batman! . . . - I've not had holes in Buce like that since I stopped regular dosing of Excel.

So for me, I'll always have Excel in my armory as a short term fix for removing algae via spot dosing (not that I get much algae these days fortunately), but I don't believe long term dosing is necessarily that good for plant health and may mask other issues that need to be addressed in the tank, and I certainly wouldn't consider long term exposure to Excel a positive thing for livestock health.
 
And to add my 3c on this, is that ALL, absolutely ALL algaecides I have tried (I think over 6-7 different brands) f***ed my shrimps in one way or another and some of them my ottos as well. So something to keep in mind. I never treat algae in-tank anymore but rather remove the plant from the tank, overdose some algaecide in a container with water and let the plant bath in there for a few minutes, then rinse. Within 3-4 days all algae is dead. Denis sent me his APT Fix to try but I am traumatized to use any kind of funky liquids in my tank specially when they all tell you that your fish and shrimps will be ok yet you need to keep dosing some of them for 8-15 days 🧐.
 
I see the topic is somewhat cleared but as many experienced users here said - many people would come and read this topic, which I understand as - How to increase my GH and KH.
Here, what I have been trough having the same question.

Prelude
I had issues with holes in plants' leaves, old leaves mostly which in most cases translates as Potassium or Magnesium deficiency. Well it didn't work with more potassium dosing, so having very soft tap water I got to the idea to try increasing the GH. I have been using Sachem Equilibrium for some time and it worked. After the bottle was gone I was thinking how can I go cheaper on this.. So ended up (after some research) adding Magnesium Sulfate and Calcium Chloride.
I also had issues with all types of livebearers, which don't like very soft water. Thus I have to increase my KH (inclusive PH). I know its not the best way, but the most accessible was Sodium Bicarbonate. After doing this for few months I finally have Molies offsprings, thriving platies, guppies and all the happy fish. In the same time I keep my dosing low as I also have different kinds of neon Tetras, Otocincluses, Ancistruses, in other words fish which would not like too hard water..

I believe I got to where I want with this - increase of GH and KH. Its been an year and everything in that regard seems working well, neglecting the warnings about Sodium accumulation. May be its my weekly maintenance changing 70% of the water or may be it has to go really off with the concentrations to see the bad effect. I just add minimal from what is required (for Sodium, KH and livebearers needs), no visible damage on plants.

Long story short, here is my tap and what I do with it before changing 70% of the water in both of my aquariums:
Note, this is added to 120 litters of water container before maintenance and then poured into aquariums, which are 140 and 40 liters real volume.
1670621270661.png


Disclaimer
This is my experience. You can check my journal to see my aquas.
For my calculations I use this great (really helpful) tool: Nutrient Dosing Calculator
My tap water measuring error is somewhere around +-0.5 ppm I believe. I have been using different vendors liquid reagent tests, but lets say JBL ones overall.
How I see it, 1g of Sodium Bicarbonate per 10 litters with 70-75% water changes per week would not cause damage at least for an year. (I would compare this to dosing 30pm Na3 weekly and not poisonings your fish in severe planted aquarium if you do your maintenance regularly).
 
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many people would come and read this topic
Yep, it's easy to get sidetracked.
Magnesium sulphate, Calcium chloride and Calcium Sulfate will raise Gh, no effect on KH. Calcium carbonate will raise Gh and Kh. Potassium carbonate will raise KH.

In other news.. Tom barr broke the ndc and disclosed how Excel works, Gregg morin is currently writing an advert( Scientific document for Seachem) to explain why 1,5-Pentanedial isn't called glutaraldehyde, or maybe it is 🤔
 
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Hi all,Yes, carbonate chemistry is a funny one. Calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is soluble in water, but soluble in weak acids.

Cheers Darrel
Solubility in water0.013 g/L (25 °C)[1][2]
0.013 g/L (25 °C)[1][2]
Source: Calcium carbonate - Wikipedia

You know, I felt my self a fool by buying a kilo of Calcium Carbonate and then realizing why the water of the blackboard sponge always looked like milk.. Then I walked back to the chemistry shop and got as exchange for the same price a kilo of Baking soda, which costed like several euro down, not too much but enough to let it go.. But overall I felt so stupid of trying for several hours to dissolve chalk water :D
 
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Hi all,
But overall I felt so stupid of trying for several hours to dissolve chalk water
Yes, it is only the carbonates of group one (alkali) metals <"that are soluble">.

If your water is already saturated with Ca++ and HCO3- ions, when you add sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) CaCO3 will always precipitate out as the least soluble salt, via the <"common ion effect">.

Rain water <"is a weak acid">, which is how ground water becomes hard and base rich, but it takes a lot of rain (really carbonic acid (H2CO3))to dissolve a relatively small amount of limestone.

cheers Darrel
 
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Thanks for the additional posts folks, they have been informative👍. I have decided to leave well enough alone anyway as when I tried upping my GH and Magnesium(just mg in one tank but, GH in another without seiru stone) it resulted in worse plant growth. So, I'm back to what worked fine for the most part before lol. I'm pretty sure I am once again doing too much😔 and need to just let the tanks season...

Also, sorry about the slight derail earlier. It was a good discussion none the less. Just so you guys know, I am far from hell bent on using Excel or other Glut products forever. I just bought a 500mL bottle to experiment with/try and am just testing it on half of my tanks until the bottle runs out. Once it runs out, I will get to see what changes when I stop dosing...
 
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