Best Way To Start A Planted Tank?

[spyder]

What size is the aquarium and what else do you intend to stock?

Well its capacity is 120 litres and as of now I'd like to stock it with two german blue rams, just still undecided on how best to integrate them.

I think the best method would be a pure ammonia fishless cycle as I'm better at doing those than using plants to keep the water quality good!

120l is a good size for a pair of dwarf rams. What some people are trying to explain is that it would be near impossible for 2 small fish like this to create a high level of ammonia in this volume of water when the tank is planted. Do this in a 20cm cube and it's a totally different story.

You can go ahead with your ammonia and test kits if you like, this is everyones free choice but you are confusing the two approaches and trying to adopt a technique that ones uses and force it upon the other where in reality it has been made redundant.

I would be inclined to pull the trigger, you may surprise yourself.

 

[PeteA]

...
plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario.

cheers Darrel

Thanks for the clear explanation. Sorry I was going over old ground (and slightly hijacking the thread too). Probably like a lot of other people I've mooched around on various forums and sites and only ever come across articles and comments emphasising the importance of fishless cycling a tank - perhaps an article on setting up a planted tank for fish within the articles section on the site would clarify the situation and get the message out there that it's a perfectly valid alternative.

pete

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I wasn't requesting that you regurgitate a text book all over again. I am aware of all ideas that you have mentioned but thank you for the input anyway.

Mark, I think I've made all the comment I can, but you are not obliged to listen to me or any of the other posters on this forum. I don't know what you want from us, but I'm not going to change my opinion and I think I've got a pretty good understanding of both the theory, and the practicalities, of managing the nitrogen cycle.

cheers Darrel

 

[BigTom]

Wow. This thread is insane.

OP claims he wishes to set up a planted tank but then states catagorically that he will be unable to succeed, and then goes on to ignore large amounts of very good advice about the former, because of the latter.

I've just reread all three pages three times because I'm stuck in a BnB with nothing better to do, and I still don't understand what you want to hear, Mark.

 

[mark4785]

Hi all,

I wasn't requesting that you regurgitate a text book all over again. I am aware of all ideas that you have mentioned but thank you for the input anyway.

Mark, I think I've made all the comment I can, but you are not obliged to listen to me or any of the other posters on this forum. I don't know what you want from us, but I'm not going to change my opinion and I think I've got a pretty good understanding of both the theory, and the practicalities, of managing the nitrogen cycle.

cheers Darrel

Hey,

I am definitely listening however you're presuming i'm an expert when it comes to maintaining a planted aquarium and as such you have provided evidence of what a successful planted aquarium is able to achieve in terms of nutrients uptake (this encompasses ammonia and nitrite in particular).

With respect, I wasn't asking for a generic explanation (almost text book like) about the role of plants in a environment in which they flourish. I was asking if it would be safe to introduce a fish to a planted aquarium on day 1 (without any fishless cycle having been conducted obv) baring in mind i'm a novice and the plants may die or suffer die back. I expected the answer to be no, and others have suggested this. You, however, came at it from a vey generic text book angle.

Now, funnily enough, the reason for me being disgruntled is that you said words to the effect "this is my last visit to this thread" implying I'd done something wrong in politely requesting for others opinions because, according to you,"we've been over this before" in another topic. I'm sorry but, you could have referred me back to the other topic rather than typing everything out again.

I'm not going to pretend to be happy when people slip sentences like that in their replies unless there is a logical reason for it.

 

[J Butler]

From the comments above, adding ammonia into a planted tank could be detrimental to plants. So going down this road means that you should leave putting any plants in until such time as your tank is cycled. This must mean that you need to fully plant your tank and immediately put fish in one after the other, as once the tank is planted you can no longer feed the bacteria in the filter thus need ammonia from a different source (a fishes bottom).

No, you plant the tank, and then leave it, once the plants are established you add the fish. I still add my fish in sequence over a couple of weeks, but this is probably over cautious. Have a look at my comments on this thread. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=12800&p=140759>

Hi Mark,

I think Darrel did mention that it's a good idea to get the plants established before you add your fish back on page 2...

 

[Morgan Freeman]

I think Mark's concern is that he'll add the fish to his planted tank but due to his lack of experience with plants he's worried they'll die off and start decreasing his water quality, with this in mind I'd be worried about adding fish. Taking this into account the best step would be to a) work on your plant growing skills before adding fish OR b) do the usual fishless cycling. However, given the sensitive nature of the fish you want to keep it would be best if you did indeed have a large, healthy plant mass to help with water quality. So you only really have one option which is to get some healthy plants established. Why not stick with easy plants like Java ferns etc?


Sorry if I'm off base here, but that's my understanding of this thread.

 

[PeteA]

I think Mark's concern is that he'll add the fish to his planted tank but due to his lack of experience with plants he's worried they'll die off and start decreasing his water quality, with this in mind I'd be worried about adding fish. Taking this into account the best step would be to a) work on your plant growing skills before adding fish OR b) do the usual fishless cycling. However, given the sensitive nature of the fish you want to keep it would be best if you did indeed have a large, healthy plant mass to help with water quality. So you only really have one option which is to get some healthy plants established. Why not stick with easy plants like Java ferns etc?


Sorry if I'm off base here, but that's my understanding of this thread.

For the tank I'm about to set up I'm planning on getting the plants established for a week+ before adding any fish - basically rather than adding ammonia, I'm adding in plants & fertiliser This will also allow me to play with getting my CO2 and light levels running properly.

 

[mark4785]

I think Mark's concern is that he'll add the fish to his planted tank but due to his lack of experience with plants he's worried they'll die off and start decreasing his water quality, with this in mind I'd be worried about adding fish. Taking this into account the best step would be to a) work on your plant growing skills before adding fish OR b) do the usual fishless cycling. However, given the sensitive nature of the fish you want to keep it would be best if you did indeed have a large, healthy plant mass to help with water quality. So you only really have one option which is to get some healthy plants established. Why not stick with easy plants like Java ferns etc?


Sorry if I'm off base here, but that's my understanding of this thread.

You have hit the nail on the head there..

Its quite a specific question that I should imagine requires somebody with a lot of knowledge to answer. An experienced plant keeper will have been a novice in a situation involving die-back at some point in the past which is why I am mythed that certain people were approaching this thread needlessly with 'text book style replies' on the function of 'healthy' plants and their effects.

I've made my mind up on what to do. Although, some people here have described the fishless cycle has outmoded by the function of plants acting has 'biological filters' (in effect assuming the plants are healthy which is not something I had mentioned here), but at the same time cannot provide an answer to the question "is a novices' planted aquarium with huge potential for problems suitable/safe for the mikrogeophagus ramirezi?" i'm going to just do a fishless cycle which guarantees clean, healthy water at it's conclusion.

There's no doubt that at the 'conclusion' of learning how to maintain a planted tank, the plants will have the function of removing nitrogens, but I NEVER mentioned that I was a professional who would achieve this straight away.

 

[mark4785]

Wow. This thread is insane.

OP claims he wishes to set up a planted tank but then states catagorically that he will be unable to succeed, and then goes on to ignore large amounts of very good advice about the former, because of the latter.

I've just reread all three pages three times because I'm stuck in a BnB with nothing better to do, and I still don't understand what you want to hear, Mark.

Clearly the food on the BnB menu took your attention away from the thread lol. I never claimed I would be unable to succeed in running a planted aquarium; if that is your understanding of the term novice, please revise it.

I didn't ignore the information given; if I did that I would not have responded to it to make it known that the knowledge, although much appreciated, does not address my question.

 

[BigTom]

Take a relatively low tech approach, pick robust, easy to grow plants and plant heavily from the offset. Give them a few weeks to establish until you're sure they're growing happily and any initial ammonia spike has passed. Add your two fish. Easy.

You can also temporarily add quick growing plants (floaters, cabomba etc) at the beginning, as they are very efficient water cleaners, then remove them once the rest of the plants are well established.

 

[Morgan Freeman]

I think Mark's concern is that he'll add the fish to his planted tank but due to his lack of experience with plants he's worried they'll die off and start decreasing his water quality, with this in mind I'd be worried about adding fish. Taking this into account the best step would be to a) work on your plant growing skills before adding fish OR b) do the usual fishless cycling. However, given the sensitive nature of the fish you want to keep it would be best if you did indeed have a large, healthy plant mass to help with water quality. So you only really have one option which is to get some healthy plants established. Why not stick with easy plants like Java ferns etc?


Sorry if I'm off base here, but that's my understanding of this thread.

You have hit the nail on the head there..

Its quite a specific question that I should imagine requires somebody with a lot of knowledge to answer. An experienced plant keeper will have been a novice in a situation involving die-back at some point in the past which is why I am mythed that certain people were approaching this thread needlessly with 'text book style replies' on the function of 'healthy' plants and their effects.

I've made my mind up on what to do. Although, some people here have described the fishless cycle has outmoded by the function of plants acting has 'biological filters' (in effect assuming the plants are healthy which is not something I had mentioned here), but at the same time cannot provide an answer to the question "is a novices' planted aquarium with huge potential for problems suitable/safe for the mikrogeophagus ramirezi?" i'm going to just do a fishless cycle which guarantees clean, healthy water at it's conclusion.

There's no doubt that at the 'conclusion' of learning how to maintain a planted tank, the plants will have the function of removing nitrogens, but I NEVER mentioned that I was a professional who would achieve this straight away.

Are there any plants you find easy to grow? How about just sticking with the species you find that you never fail with? I always seem to fail with Vallis even though it's said to be fairly easy to grow so I just stick with stuff that works well for me. Hygros, Rotala, crypts, dwarf sag are always sure things for me so I'm sticking with them to help maintain my water quality ....I just have to scape with what I can grow atm

Low light = Low stress IMO!

 

[Brenmuk]

Hi Mark4785

If I were you I would forego the addition of the rams initially and set up the planted tank as advised by Darrel using something more hardy like tetras instead (slowly building up stocking levels as even hardy fish can be wiped out by ammonia problems). Then when you are satisfied that you can grow plants successfully and the water parameters are stable, exchange the tetras for the rams. You want the bio load of the tetras to be roughly the same as the rams that you will exchange. After the exchange perform frequent perhaps daily w/c's for a week or 2 to ensure that the tank adjusts to the change in bio load without ammonia problems.

This way you get to try a planted tank and not expose the sensitive fish that you want to keep to unstable conditions.

Remember that algae are plants (well most species) and will absorb ammonia and oxygenate the the tank as well so its not a total disaster from a fish health perspective if you do end up with algae.

 

[Morgan Freeman]

Good advice. Sensitive species should really be added to mature tanks, mature not being just freshly cycled but stabilised with fish populations already and ideally with healthy plant mass.

Join the low light fraternity Mark!

 

[mark4785]

I think Mark's concern is that he'll add the fish to his planted tank but due to his lack of experience with plants he's worried they'll die off and start decreasing his water quality, with this in mind I'd be worried about adding fish. Taking this into account the best step would be to a) work on your plant growing skills before adding fish OR b) do the usual fishless cycling. However, given the sensitive nature of the fish you want to keep it would be best if you did indeed have a large, healthy plant mass to help with water quality. So you only really have one option which is to get some healthy plants established. Why not stick with easy plants like Java ferns etc?


Sorry if I'm off base here, but that's my understanding of this thread.

You have hit the nail on the head there..

Its quite a specific question that I should imagine requires somebody with a lot of knowledge to answer. An experienced plant keeper will have been a novice in a situation involving die-back at some point in the past which is why I am mythed that certain people were approaching this thread needlessly with 'text book style replies' on the function of 'healthy' plants and their effects.

I've made my mind up on what to do. Although, some people here have described the fishless cycle has outmoded by the function of plants acting has 'biological filters' (in effect assuming the plants are healthy which is not something I had mentioned here), but at the same time cannot provide an answer to the question "is a novices' planted aquarium with huge potential for problems suitable/safe for the mikrogeophagus ramirezi?" i'm going to just do a fishless cycle which guarantees clean, healthy water at it's conclusion.

There's no doubt that at the 'conclusion' of learning how to maintain a planted tank, the plants will have the function of removing nitrogens, but I NEVER mentioned that I was a professional who would achieve this straight away.

Are there any plants you find easy to grow? How about just sticking with the species you find that you never fail with? I always seem to fail with Vallis even though it's said to be fairly easy to grow so I just stick with stuff that works well for me. Hygros, Rotala, crypts, dwarf sag are always sure things for me so I'm sticking with them to help maintain my water quality ....I just have to scape with what I can grow atm

Low light = Low stress IMO!

Yes I can grow quite a good range of plants. Anubias Sp, bacopa monneri, eustralis stellata, cryptocoryne brown/green, lilaeopsis brasilliensis and a form of moss are currently growing well in my currently established tank. Due to not having much artistic talent, the positoning of the plants and bog wood do not resemble a traditional aquascape and more often than not I have a small amount of plants growing. This is one of the reasons I was worrying about my plants uptake of nitrogens if I was to set up another planted tank.

I find that I also have to stick with certain plants too, it's a shame as I usually buy plants based on how nice they look and how compatible they are with my set-up, and yet they can still die off! i've created a bit of mental shortlist of the plants that do actually grow instead of shrivel up!!

 

[mark4785]

Good advice. Sensitive species should really be added to mature tanks, mature not being just freshly cycled but stabilised with fish populations already and ideally with healthy plant mass.

Join the low light fraternity Mark!

How do I do that with a high output T5's? lol

I have just begun binning quite a bit of my floating amazon frogbit to introduce more light as the leaves of my bacopa monnieri where getting smaller towards the tops implying too little light. 48 hours into removing the frogbit I have what looks like white tufts all over the bog wood.

In all honesty, I prefer the high-light set-ups but, probably like yourself, have to keep reverting it to low light due to the stress of the algal problems.

 

[Morgan Freeman]

I find the growth in low light set ups comparable to terrarium growth with high light, which is what I'm used to. Slow growth doesn't really bother me. I'm at the stage where I'm practising plant growing rather than scaping so I'm not too bothered if my tanks don't look so great.

 

[mark4785]

Hi Mark4785

If I were you I would forego the addition of the rams initially and set up the planted tank as advised by Darrel using something more hardy like tetras instead (slowly building up stocking levels as even hardy fish can be wiped out by ammonia problems). Then when you are satisfied that you can grow plants successfully and the water parameters are stable, exchange the tetras for the rams. You want the bio load of the tetras to be roughly the same as the rams that you will exchange. After the exchange perform frequent perhaps daily w/c's for a week or 2 to ensure that the tank adjusts to the change in bio load without ammonia problems.

This way you get to try a planted tank and not expose the sensitive fish that you want to keep to unstable conditions.

Remember that algae are plants (well most species) and will absorb ammonia and oxygenate the the tank as well so its not a total disaster from a fish health perspective if you do end up with algae.

Thanks for your suggestions Brenmuk.

There are some issues in what you are saying though. For instance, knowing what constitutes the same bioload in rams compared to tetras when it gets to the point when I exchange the tetras for rams is going to be speculative. Also, how would I know that the water parameters are stable as the plants will be absorbing everything before I can monitor it. It might be that adding fish will tip the balance as the plants will only be utilising ferts that I add, rather than the waste products of fish.

I can see the logic in what you're saying but theres no science involved; the whole process would be risky, unpredictable and guess work. I liken it to trying to write in a room with no lights; if your eyes don't adjust then you're stuck.

I am now in a position to fill the tank with water and get the external filter running and the dilemma is, is it worth waiting 2-3 months for my fishless cycle to complete or is it worth filling the tank with as many plants has possible and risking the health of a ram which will definitely die if there is any trace of ammonia or nitrite. With a fishless cycle I can approach controlling the ammonia and nitrite quasi-scientifically, establishing cause and effect between ammonia dosage and ammonia concentration in the water over a given period until a positive effect is reached. With a planted tank, this process is going to be presumptious unless i'm missing something.

As much as i'd like to get planted and observe everything growing, I think for the sake of the fish I'd like to introduce I'm going to start a fishless cycle so I don't come up against problems. It's a real shame as I've planned my scape, placed all the sand within the tank, ordered my manzanita and rocks.

Mark.

 

[spyder]

Hi. Have you figured out a sequence for this fishless cycle? Dosing ammonia with plants or planting when the cycle is complete?

If your dosing ammonia in planted a tank you risk algae problems.

If you cycle without plants, then plant you have to add stock. Plants would not be settled and you you risk problems.

If you plant, run a week or 2, introduce stock as suggested you will reach a safer place with less stress. When you come to stock your rams there's no need to be worried about the bio load. If you are, remove more than you add.

Good luck with the tank and rams.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

With a fishless cycle I can approach controlling the ammonia and nitrite quasi-scientifically, establishing cause and effect between ammonia dosage and ammonia concentration in the water over a given period until a positive effect is reached. With a planted tank, this process is going to be presumptious unless i'm missing something.

Mark, you are missing something, this is totally the wrong way around and there is nothing scientific about it.

You cannot accurately measure NH3, (or even to a lesser degree NO2 or NO3) in tank water, unless you have dedicated laboratory quality analytical kit. I actually have access to an ion selective electode costing £thousands, and I still couldn't get a meaningful measurement of NH3/NH4+ ions.

This is the reason scientists at the Environment Agency etc use the 4 day BOD (Bichemical Oxygen Demand) test and biotic indices (based upon invertebrate and plant life samples) to score river health. Unfortunately neither of these are possible for us, although you can use a very rough estimation of BOD. This is related to the REDOX potential that Marine Aquarists measure.

What we do know from extensive resarch is that plants are extremely effective at maintaining water quality, and this is true in almost any scenario. If you don't have Diana Walstad's book, it is worth getting a copy.

ECOLOGY of the PLANTED AQUARIUM - A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist Second Edition" (2003)

You could also have a look at this link: <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>, although it is titled "Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium" it covers biological filtration to some degree as well.

cheers Darrel