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Biological liquid carbon

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What do members make of the new biological liquid carbon products such as https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/dennerle---carbo-elixier-bio-250ml-2323-p.asp?

Do we think they will be safer for fish?
More or less effective at improving plant growth than guteraldehyde based products?
Has anyone tried it?

I'm sure the opinions will be best and possibly conflicting... be interested to hear your thoughts??

Personally I like the fact it appears safer for th fish and will give it a go... remains to be seen how effective it is. I will try and document it as a single trial of the effects.
 

zozo

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Here is a product review, it's in German. (You might need google translate). But it's stated it does not contain Glut.. And babble indeed something about Citric Acid cycle
TCA_cycle.svg


https://www.aquarium-welt.net/kohlenstoffduengung-ohne-glutaraldehyd-mit-carbo-elixier-bio/
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
Thanks @tam, not glutaraldehyde (C5H8O2) then.

Looks likely to be one of the carbon compounds, from the citric acid cycle, (the image that Marcel (@zozo) posted). Malic acid (C4H6O5) might be an option, it is cheap to buy (like citric acid), so would be an attractive raw material for a carbon supplement.

cheers Darrel
 

tam

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What would that mean it terms of fish/invertebrate safety - is it as harmless as they say?
 

zozo

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A bit further down the site i posted above also is an interview with Dr. Carsten Gretenkord - Biologist and head of Dennerle research and technological development department. He tells a little bit about Glut as a buildingblock for the citric acid cycle in the plant and that this was the basic foundation to research for altenrative ingredients to get the same result wihtout the use of glut. But for obvious reasons can't go into content details other than it works with the Citric Acid cycle and contains next to a number of other ingredients also Potassium and Iron which seem to play a major role in this cycle. :)
 

tiger15

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It's not new. Saltwater folks have been using citric acid as a carbon source to promote denitrification in deep sand. Another option is alcohol.
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
It's not new. Saltwater folks have been using citric acid as a carbon source to promote denitrification in deep sand. Another option is alcohol.
That is right, both ethanol (via vodka addition) and citric acid are organic carbon sources, but the reason for the carbon addition would be slightly different between freshwater planted and reef aquariums.

Marine
The premise for reef aquaria with deep sand beds or plenums is that, because of very effective skimming, microbial denitrification may become limited by organic carbon (DOC) availability. The additional DOC is the electron donor used by the bacteria involved in anaerobic denitrification. Reef aquarists don't tend to have any plants, or be particularly keen on large volume water changes, so denitrification is one of the few options they have for nitrate reduction.

I've never kept a marine aquarium, but if I did I would definitely have an algal scrubber and ideally some <"Mangrove trees">.

Freshwater planted
Plants are pretty leaky structures, and protein skimming doesn't work very well in freshwater, so DOC is unlikely to be limiting. Personally I'm not keen on denitrification in a filter (unless it is a HMF, where you can have successful simultaneous aerobic nitrification and anaerobic denitrification), but it will occur in all undisturbed substrates, and in the zones of fluctuating REDOX values in the rhizosphere, where roots are leaking both carbon and oxygen into the sediment.

Higher plants are pretty effective at depleting NO3, but submerged plants are often CO2 (Dissolved Inorganic Carbon (DIC)) limited.

As far as I know no-one knows the exact pathway through which organic carbon supplements produce higher levels of photosynthesis, but they seem to aid photosynthesis.

Have a look at @Manuel Arias's posting in <"Liquid carbon....">.

cheers Darrel
 

tiger15

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What is HMF?

Citric acid is a form of DOC. In a moderately stocked tank, there is plenty of DOC from from fish waste and left over food, so there is no benefit to add more DOC via citric acid. Besides, algae thrive on DOC and this is why frequent WC to remove DOC is justified in heavily stocked tanks.
 

X3NiTH

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Along with a few other compounds (Citric acid, etc.) the presence of the Acetyl group at the top of the chart Zozo posted is likely Sodium Acetate. I found this really good PDF paper on wastewater treatment and chlorella survival that pretty much lays it all out on the subject of Sodium Acetate efficacy.

ORGANIC CARBON SUPPLEMENTATION OF STERILIZED MUNICIPAL WASTEWATER IS ESSENTIAL FOR HETEROTROPHIC GROWTH AND REMOVING AMMONIUM BY THE MICROALGA CHLORELLA VULGARIS

The organic carbon supplement that I'm currently using is the Microbe-Lift Bio CO₂ liquid fertiliser (rebadged as a Maidenhead Aquatics Product). It uses a combination of Fulvic and Humic acids.
 

zozo

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Citric acid is a form of DOC

I guess you are slightly mixing things up.. Its Citric Acid Cycle that is a biologic metabolic cycle in the plant that is trigered. It seems that Glut based products do the same within the plant. Reading a bit about this cycle it seems that also Acetic Acid is formed during this proces. And adding vinigar to the tank water also is an not new trick.

Acetic Acid and Alcohol (probably also Citric Acid) are closely related and formed in a biolocal (bacterial) process.. It starts with yeasting, alcohol that finaly becomes Acitic Acid.

Adding Vinigar or Citric Acid to an aqaurium wil both have simular effect. It's not only adding a carbon course as is Alcohol. but it also is an acid lowering the pH. Of what i understood the general concensus of adding acid and lowering pH helps to free Co2 from carbonates in the water which works beneficial on plant grwoth.. Maybe, just maybe i wouldn't be surpised if plants also take up parts from this acid and use it in their citric acid cycle. Till now it is publicaly largely unknown what and how this exactly works in plants. If i remember correctly Tom Barr once stated he knows but was not allowed to go into the subject because he signed a disclosure agreement with Seachem. And till now yet no hobbyist into science figured it realy out. It stops with theories and the usual suspects in how it might work. It still is a well and probablt the best guarded aqaurium secrets. :) It seems.
 

Matt @ ScapeEasy

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I have just bought some... one thing that occurred to me though... is there any reason I could use guteraldehyde and citric acid products at the same time?
 

Matt @ ScapeEasy

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I have just bought some... one thing that occurred to me though... is there any reason I could use guteraldehyde and citric acid products at the same time?
Just bumping this... anyone have any views? I have been using them both for a week or so now... all going ok so far! Hygrophila polysperma seems redder recently too... not sure if that could be related? I did turn up the lights and dosing a bit at the same time.
 

rebel

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I do wonder whether you'd cause your kH to crash out if adding too much citric acid?
 
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