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Brown edges of leaves, what does it indicate?

peaches

Member
Joined
29 Dec 2008
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257
Location
Yorkshire - Gods own county
I set up my new tank a few weeks ago using a mature filter from my old tank and transferred my stock across. I used new tetra plant complete substrate, covered with gravel from my previous tank. I also took bogwood and plants from my previous tank.

Some of my plants, anubias mainly, are browning at the edges on some leaves. My crypts started to yellow a little but the green veins are showing, but now they two have one or two brown edges.

What does this mean usually? Is it a deficiency?
 
Are you dosing any NPK ? Are you adding any co2 liquid carbon?
Matt
 
No, neither of those. I was going to start dosing fertiliser but have only just put in the new substrate. Which fertiliser do you recommend? Is it a specific deficiency? If a want an easy maintenance CO2 which one should I start with? I used Easycarbo in my old tank, but was wondering if I have to go down that road, whether the kits with yeast etc would be good to start with. Its a 96 litre tank, (over)filtered by a Fluval external 203 and an internal Fluval 2 plus. The 2 plus was the old filtr from my previous tank and the fluval the new addition.

I have just read the Diana Walstad book and was hoping to go low tech, but it seems that this wont be the case because I have used a commercial substrate and not soil.

My fish are
pair dwarf gourami
4 mollies
several endlers and fry
6 young corys
1 young bristlenose
 
You can still go low tech as long as you have fairly low lighting no or few water changes just top up have easy low light plants like crypts and a fairly well stocked tank
If you add co2 this is then not low tech
Any carbon enrichment is then classed as high tech
The easiest co2 to go for is a pressurised system
You can buy a commercially available system or for around half the price put together your own using parts bought from eBay and a fire extinguisher
Have a read on the co2 section of the forum for more info
As for fertilisers tpn+ is a good one or you can buy your own dry salts and make your own the initial outlay is a bit more but on a 96ltr will last ages in comparison to any of the normal ferts
Again have a read on the fertiliser section
Matt
 
peaches said:
I set up my new tank a few weeks ago using a mature filter from my old tank and transferred my stock across. I used new tetra plant complete substrate, covered with gravel from my previous tank. I also took bogwood and plants from my previous tank.

Some of my plants, anubias mainly, are browning at the edges on some leaves. My crypts started to yellow a little but the green veins are showing, but now they two have one or two brown edges.

What does this mean usually? Is it a deficiency?
Hello,
There is a 99.44% probability that this means you have too much light. The type of sediment you use is not necessarily related to this problem and you do not need to add CO2 to fix this. If you want to stay low tech, then as Matt has just mentioned, you need to greatly reduce your light intensity.

Cheers,
 
Wow! Im really surprised! The light is only one 18 watt tube that is standard with this type of tank. I bought the Flora sun max plant grow one and fitted a new reflector recently. I will whip out the reflector ... its funny because that does coincide with the problems. I have some salvinia natans and I will leave that to bulk up and filter the light. I thought because I only had a standard set up I had to buy low light plants.

Do you recommend just trying to take out the reflector and letting the salvinia filter the light? Will this work or do I need a different bulb? It does explain I suppose why the cabomba and bacopa monnieri has shot up lately. It also eplains why one crypt which is shaded by the anubia is doing better than the others. Shall I amend my photoperiod? I must admit that lately I have been running it without a timer, just putting it on at around 10 am and switching it off at about 10.30 pm. Shall I try using a timer and use a shorter photoperiod, perhaps broken up by a siesta? I used to do this in my other tank.

Im relieved I dont have to get CO2 though. Thanks!!
 
peaches said:
Do you recommend just trying to take out the reflector and letting the salvinia filter the light? Will this work or do I need a different bulb?
Hi,
A common practice with low tech tanks is to shade the surface with floating plants or reduce the lighting energy until such time as the plants adapt to the conditions of the tank. This is especially true when using plants that have been grown in a terrestrial manner. Leaves that were previously growing in air have difficulty functioning when suddenly flooded. This is a traumatic change and it takes time to adapt. In nature, flooding is usually accompanied by turbidity which reduces the light energy and facilitates an easier transition to submersed form. The same is true of CO2 enriched tanks, and that's why we see a lot of diatomic algae at tank setup.

The type of bulb used is not relevant. Only the spectral energy of the bulb matters. This is called Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR). There are a couple of physiological reasons that the plants are unable to use the light energy being imposed onto them after being flooded, so the best strategy is to keep the energy low for a few weeks until the old leaves, grown in air, are replaced by new leaves, grown in water.

Investing in a timer is one of the better things you can do at this point. Siestas are meaningless, so don't waste time doing that. Keep a short photoperiod, say 6 hours or so with low energy or shaded with floaters and the plants will do better generally.

Cheers,
 
Thank you.

Do I go ahead with fertilizer at this point, or wait until the plants are more used to the set up? I hope the anubias dont lose all their leaves as they are lovely and glossy, apart from the edges on some of them. I am trying to work out why the "golden " form of the anubias is less affected than the other darker green ones., the worst victim is the small anubias nana at the front. Maybe that gets daylight too.

I really did think I was doing the right thing buying low light plants due to the fact that my light was basic.
 
Well, what I'm trying to explain is that there is nothing wrong with your choice of plants. It's not the species of plants that have a problem, but instead difficulty of all plants transitioning their physiology from one form to another. The same thing happens in every tank. People who use CO2 have this problem as well because they use even more light which overloads their system as well. After a couple of months this will be less of a problem because the plants will have adapted to their new environment.

There is no reason not to start dosing. Plants transitioning from terrestrial to submersed need all the help they can get. Nutrient uptake is not something aquatic plants do reluctantly. If you don't feed them then they use the energy reserves that they built up while they were growing at the nursery and they become depleted unless they can feed from the substrate or from the water column immediately. You don't need a whole lot of nutrients, and there may even be sufficient levels of nutrients in your tap water, however to ensure that there is sufficient levels you should add small weekly doses of something like Tropica TPN+ as mentioned in an earlier post. You did not specify exactly what sediment you are using so it's unclear whether the sediment has sufficient levels. In any case, anubias do not live in the substrate so they would still appreciate water column dosing.

Cheers,
 
This is the stuff I have:
http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/aquar ... 2-8kg.html
It is covered with pea gravel.

I have ordered some TPN+ and will see how I get on with it. I have actually thought of buying potassium sulphate
potassium nitrate and epsom salts and mixing my own, but I presume I would still have to buy the trace elements as these will become depleted from the substrate eventually. I also have some seachem flourish root tablets but havent used them yet.
 
Hi,
Thanks for the link. Yes, this is "Tetra Plant Complete Substrate", another misnamed substrate adjunct. It's amazing to me the number of products that use the word "Complete" in the product description. Then the description goes on to say something completely incredulous like: "...Free of nitrates and phosphates..."

So my question is how can the product call itself "complete" if it is deficient in 30% to 40% of the ingredients plants need to survive?

Allow me a short rant and let me put this in numeric perspective. The marketing department at Tetra are quick to point out that this substrate is high in Iron but low in Nitrate. This sounds reasonable to the average person, but it sounds like a disaster to the anoraks. Why? Easy; under the most demanding environmental conditions, such as a high light and high CO2 the maximum Iron uptake requirement for the most demanding plant would be something like 0.05 ppm per day. Under those very same extreme conditions, the daily uptake for Nitrate would be something like 2 to 3 ppm daily. That means you need between 40 to 60 times more Nitrate than Iron, yet the product is Nitrate free. And they have the unmitigated gall to advertise that fact as if it were something to be proud of. The numbers are similar for Phosphate requirement. The plant needs about 10 to 15 times as much Phosphate than Iron. So how on Earth can this be a "complete" substrate?

Here's what's even more bizarre. The product is basically compost, just rotted leaves which will break down over time ultimately and produce CO2 and ammonia, which will find there way to the plant thereby satisfying some of the plants Nitrogen and Carbon requirements.

It would actually be more accurate to mention that part of the equation because that's of real value. Instead, one deception is built on top of another so it becomes really difficult to understand the truth.

OK, in any case, TPN+ is all you need for a non-CO2 tank. Of course, it's much cheaper in the long run to use the simple combination of Potassium Nitrate and Potassium Phosphate powders, plus trace mix powder, so it doesn't matter about depletion, which won't happen for a very long time anyway because the demand is low and the trace nutrients are in that substrate.

Since this is a low tech tank you don't need to go overboard with tablets or this or that. Just keep it simple. You simply don't want there to be shortfalls of nutrients, but you don't need to pump up the plants with mega nutrients as you would do if you were adding CO2 and were using megawattage lighting.
 
A very informative rant. I was disappointed it finished there Clive. Please go on for my benefit as I am interested in the concept of a 'perfect substrate'.
I have in my own tanks experimented several times adding products such as laterite and peat, along with clay dust particles to inert gravels. I have noted huge differences in plant growth but never honestly known why!
 
Hi,
Well the thing about aquatic plants is that you don't really need to search for the perfect sediment as if it were The Holy Grail. There are a lot of factors that are attributable to plant growth performance, of which the sediment is really only one. The performance regime makes a difference, i.e the low speed, low tech (non-CO2) versus high speed, high tech (CO2 enrichment).

In your experiments there are a couple of reasons that explain why your laterite and peat combination works better than using sand alone. Laterite itself is just another iron rich clay. In the early days, people became hysterical over this discovery of Iron rich clay, thinking that this was in fact The Holy Grail of plant growth. That might explain why so many people focus these days on Iron in the planted aquarium. It seems to be a residual mind set from those earlier days. It turns out however, that the fact that laterite is a clay, is actually much more important than the fact that it is Iron rich.

An important attribute of sediments, from a plants perspective is an electrochemical property called Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) and Anion Exchange Capacity (AEC). Roots embedded in the sediment develop fine hairs that act, in a way as an electric plug which make contact with the sediment particles. Have you ever passed a comb through your hair and then used the comb to pick up small pieces of paper? This is a similar effect. The comb pulls negatively charged particles from the surface of your hair, giving it an electric charge.

Cations are positively charged atoms or molecules such as Calcium (Ca++), Magnesium (Mg++) or Ammonium (NH4+), while anions are negatively charged, such as Nitrate (NO3-). If the sediment particle has a sufficient electric charge on it's surface it can attract these cations/anions to its surface and then pass them on along the root hairs to the plant. So in fact the laterite clay has the ability to pass Iron on to the root hairs, but also other nutrient ions such as K+ or Nitrogen in the form of NH4+. Movement of these ions from the surrounding water to the sediment surface and then on to the root hairs depends on the local acidity as well as the relative amounts of those ions.

The peat itself acidifies the sediment which then facilitates the CEC/AEC and as it decays, it breaks down and provides carbohydrates for the bacteria to consume. These bacteria will then nitrify the ammonia that develops from decay and organic waste that finds it's way into the sediment.

In general, clay has a high CEC/AEC than does sand or synthetic aquarium gravel, which means that root hairs in contact with clay particles have a higher uptake of nutrient ions than root hairs in contact with sand or synthetic particles so it's not surprising that you might have have better growth using the clay.

It is for this reason that the bulk of aquatic sediments produce commercially for plants are clay based. It's also no surprise that many of them are laced with peat. The more expensive sediments, such as ADA Aquasoil, are also fortified with NPK.

This is all good and well, but to focus only on the sediment is to have tunnel vision and misses the point of aquatic plants, which are easily capable of feeding directly from the water column. So you could repeat your experiment using sand only and fortify the water column with nutrients. You would then get very similar results as you did earlier when fortifying the sediment with laterite and peat.

Cheers,
 
This is not possible using the same tank - to repeat the experiment, however using a different tank and filter it is. I can obviously source the same plants as well - I might even have some available from the same batch.

You suggest to 'fortiy' the water - can you advise to what levels you would recommend? Again I have a full range of salts available to try this...

As for an inert sand - that is easy as I have some coming next week.

The growth I have noticed thus far is upto 6 inches of growth in one week. which to some this may seem low as this is afterall on H. Polysperma... but the lighting is low on the tank in the corner is it planted in. This is in a 240l tank, with a low turnover of water - only 3x... The intended tank will have a turnover of 6x and will only be a 20cm cube... but willing to use it as the experiment housing...

I am genuinely interested to see if I can improve on or match the current recorded growth rates... The reason being the amount of people who ask which substrate to use... yet my favourite has always been inert gravel, addition of a little powdered clay! But for sales purposes I also advise branded goods.

I also understand the concept of CEC & AEC from my days at Uni studying anatomy and physiology... just never really thought I may come across it again - however I have to say - sadly - I am folically challenged (bald) so cannot repeat the experiment with the comb!

cheers Clive. Looking forward to some interesting salt mixes.
 
Frosties said:
I also understand the concept of CEC & AEC from my days at Uni studying anatomy and physiology... just never really thought I may come across it again - however I have to say - sadly - I am folically challenged (bald) so cannot repeat the experiment with the comb!
:? Hmmm...well I guess you can borrow someone else's head - wife/GF/neighbour/milkman - err you only need a few strokes really... :lol:

The non-CO2 general dosing scheme only requires around 1/8th teaspoon (say, 1 gram) of KNO3 per 5 litres of tank volume per week, and, to make it easy, 1/2 gram KH2PO4 per 5 litres of tank volume per week.

Again, for simplicity, you can add a trace mix at 1/2 gram per 5 litres per week and , depending on your tap water content 1/4 teaspoon (say 2 grams) Epsom salt per 5 litres per week. If your tap water is low in calcium then you can add 1/2 gram calcium chloride per week. These are just the baseline figures and you can add more or less depending on your tap water content.

Cheers,
 
To get back to the original question, this is still happening. I have reduced the photoperiod and added more floating plants. Do I reduce the photoperiod further? One of my moss balls has a brown patch on now. I keep moving them around. I am still getting new leaves on the anubias. I understood that they were slow growing and you could expect one leaf per month. I would say it was more like one per week. Does this still indicate too much light? It is not the brand new leaves which are browning. I will reduce the photoperiod further.
 
If you are getting new leaves then you can just prune those leaves that get the browning. It will take a while for things to settle down. Did you mention that your light was an 18 watt T8 or a T5?

Cheers,
 
T8s unfortunately, thats why I went for so called low light plants. I will trim off whatever is possible without making it look a mess. I am going to add some trace elements in addition to TPN+ as I am assuming this isnt enough. Got this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Trace-Elements-Mi ... 8568813115

As I only have the one 100 litre tank I thought this would last me a while, I didnt want to get loads of separate packets of trace elements. I note the dose is to add 60g to 1000ml water and add 10 ml weekly to 100 litre aquarium. I have tried to do the maths to add this dry but failed :crazy: Im not that good at maths.
 
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