building a 1200L nature aquarium with Wild Discus & jungle-nature feel

[Andrew Butler]

There's plenty of 'Automatic Water Changers' out there, Pacific sun maybe worth you looking at, although I don't know where they're upto now with regards to advancements. I know you used to be able to use their Kore 5th doser as an AWC if you sacrificed 2 channels so would hopefully do away with part of @ian_m concerns as the drain would exist as something an electronic device controlled and not be a direct drain in the sump.

As Ian correctly says you need to calculate the capacity of the sump and water that would drain from the aquarium should there be a power cut, this can make running a minimal rim to water level more of a challenge.

Possibly worth checking some of the marine forums out for some ideas.

I'll comment on your other thread RE: Water Flow.

 

[jagillham]

The trick with the sump drain I think is to have it as high as you can. Mine is above the height of the baffles, and as close as I'd dare to drill the edge of the glass. The difference between the maximum level, and the minimum operational level allows the system to restart. In your case we can assume maybe 15l of water from the tank, plus the contents of the overflow box (down to the level of your lowest stand pipe).

I've got 2 outlets on my sump as I intentionally flood the sump from a standpipe within my tank for a weekly 50% water change. On an old design I did have only 1, but it sometimes got a little close for comfort if the tank was draining quicker than the sump. I've also got the pipe into the sump coming into large pond filter sock that is taller than the water level within the tank. I had found before that debris such as leaves or snails could otherwise find their way into the drain and cause an issue.

Your system would normally have water coming in a lot slower, but in a power cut situation you may find if your overflow pipe from the tank is a similar size to the drain in the sump, it could fill up quicker than the drain can take it away.

 

[aeneas]

reposting this in my main build thread - hopefully to get some additional response. I will soon need to give detailed instruction to the aquarium maker regarding the position and number of holes they will need to drill for the return pipes. I still have no idea how the water would actually behave in such a long tank, so I really appreciate as much input here as possible. @Andrew Butler gave some useful tips already, but certainly any additional feedback or ideas more then welcome.
Considering the size (243cm L x 65cm W x 70cm H) I drafted in an approximate layout of the hardscape (black) and possible positioning of the outflow pipes (purple); in my sketch there are three, @Andrew Butler suggested two - one at each end would probably be enough. Does this make sense? What height would make most sense?

 

[aeneas]

The trick with the sump drain I think is to have it as high as you can. Mine is above the height of the baffles, and as close as I'd dare to drill the edge of the glass. The difference between the maximum level, and the minimum operational level allows the system to restart. In your case we can assume maybe 15l of water from the tank, plus the contents of the overflow box (down to the level of your lowest stand pipe).

I've got 2 outlets on my sump as I intentionally flood the sump from a standpipe within my tank for a weekly 50% water change. On an old design I did have only 1, but it sometimes got a little close for comfort if the tank was draining quicker than the sump. I've also got the pipe into the sump coming into large pond filter sock that is taller than the water level within the tank. I had found before that debris such as leaves or snails could otherwise find their way into the drain and cause an issue.

Your system would normally have water coming in a lot slower, but in a power cut situation you may find if your overflow pipe from the tank is a similar size to the drain in the sump, it could fill up quicker than the drain can take it away.

I agree... but this is why I have another tubing on the inside which can have adjustable height; so I can choose by pivoting it more up or down where I want the water level to start flowing out. The reason for this is, that - in case I want to completely clean up the system - I can just unplug this tubing and now my drain is at the bottom of the sump - I can drain out pretty much all the water just by gravity... no mess.
With the MM / EMS overflow box design the tank should not drain more than ~20 litres or so in case of a power failure or am I missing something here?

 

[aeneas]

Separate topic, but maybe some of you guys have experience with this: I intend to have GHL's Profilux aquarium computer to monitor and control many aspects of the aquarium.
In terms of "actionable" data I get from various probes, I will certainly have temperature and pH probes...
However I am not too sure about usefulness of the following:

• Redox probe?
• Conductivity probe?
• Oxygen sensor?

The guys at GHL gave me Redox+Conductivity probes in the quotation, but I am not sure how much added value those are in a freshwater tank? Would dissolved oxygen not be more useful? Would conductivity really be of use if I am at the same time adding a whole bunch of nutrients / plant fertilizers?
Any thoughts on these?

 

[Wookii]

Separate topic, but maybe some of you guys have experience with this: I intend to have GHL's Profilux aquarium computer to monitor and control many aspects of the aquarium.
In terms of "actionable" data I get from various probes, I will certainly have temperature and pH probes...
However I am not too sure about usefulness of the following:

• Redox probe?
• Conductivity probe?
• Oxygen sensor?

The guys at GHL gave me Redox+Conductivity probes in the quotation, but I am not sure how much added value those are in a freshwater tank? Would dissolved oxygen not be more useful? Would conductivity really be of use if I am at the same time adding a whole bunch of nutrients / plant fertilizers?
Any thoughts on these?

You probably don't really need any of them in all honesty - nor the computer - but I'm a gadget freak too, and the GHL stuff is very drool-worthy, so I can fully understand the attraction.

The pH probe you'll only really need at start up to establish a pH profile for your tank and CO2 dosing, and won't need it much after that - definitely don't use it as a controller. A temperature probe is always a good option to control a heater, but again, that can be done with a 40 quid wifi controller, and again is largely 'set and forget'.

Conductivity is useful to know, but again, only once in a while, and only if targeting a specific TDS for certain livestock. Again, a 20 quid handheld unit does the job perfectly well.

An oxygen probe is always something I've wanted to have a play with, but purely out of academic interest - it would serve no real purpose for maintaining an aquarium.

 

[aeneas]

Has anyone seen these Innovitech nozzles for the returns? Seems like an interesting idea... clearly marketed for marine, but could be interesting in terms of water flow also for freshwater?

 

[Wookii]

Has anyone seen these Innovitech nozzles for the returns? Seems like an interesting idea... clearly marketed for marine, but could be interesting in terms of water flow also for freshwater?

Random Flow Generator (RFG) nozzles are available from a number of companies. I tried one a little while back, but it didn't work. I think you need quite a bit of flow/pressure through them before they work properly - more than you would typically have in a planted tank. The amount of flow required depends on the size and number of them. For example one 1/2" RFG's need about 1,500 litres per hour to create the random flow.

Its a shame, as the concept would be perfect of Co2 distribution.

 

[aeneas]

Further concepts around the flow; rather than lots of different directions, I was trying to make it more directional - bottom (blue) flow right to left and top (yellow) flow back left to right back to the overflow; sorry for not the best style, but I hope it gets the message across; the return pipes (outflow) are the two red dots; both positioned so that they encourage leftwards downward flow (blue water flow)... there are two more pumpheads (purple) helping to further support the flow; water once reaching the left is circulating upward and returning (yellow) on the surface back to the skimmer. This would then be more of a directional flow hopefully? I can sketch this but I have no idea if this would work so in reality.
This would be much much preferred way of installation for me as well - I have a glass sliding door on the left half of the tank so being able to NOT DO any plumbing there would be ideal as it would allow me to push the tank closer to the wall... all the plumbing would then be on the right hand of the aquarium.
Would this work???

 

[not called Bob]

have you thought about plumbing returns up through the base, its not uncommon in a custom reef build

 

[aeneas]

have you thought about plumbing returns up through the base, its not uncommon in a custom reef build

I thought about it - but I don't have enough information / knowledge to make a smart guess how/where to make the outflows to make the return most effective. I also want to be mindful of the aquascape... returns through the base limit the aquascaping a lot - or, at least you have to have a very good idea of the aquascape you are creating before you are doing any such drilling. With back-mounted returns it is more forgiving.

 

[aeneas]

Further concepts around the flow; rather than lots of different directions, I was trying to make it more directional - bottom (blue) flow right to left and top (yellow) flow back left to right back to the overflow; sorry for not the best style, but I hope it gets the message across; the return pipes (outflow) are the two red dots; both positioned so that they encourage leftwards downward flow (blue water flow)... there are two more pumpheads (purple) helping to further support the flow; water once reaching the left is circulating upward and returning (yellow) on the surface back to the skimmer. This would then be more of a directional flow hopefully? I can sketch this but I have no idea if this would work so in reality.
This would be much much preferred way of installation for me as well - I have a glass sliding door on the left half of the tank so being able to NOT DO any plumbing there would be ideal as it would allow me to push the tank closer to the wall... all the plumbing would then be on the right hand of the aquarium.
Would this work???
View attachment 165236

Just bumping this thread... I will need to give drill instructions to the manufacturer of the tank... any thoughts around this design of the return pipes (marked red) to create a more linear - river-like flow?

 

[Wookii]

Just a couple of thoughts then:

• You need the return outlets much higher on the tank wall than indicated, as you have to remember that whenever you turn the pump off the water will back siphon down to that level.
• Just have one outlet on the far right would seem better given the weir position - you could make this a larger return pipe, and then split it with multiple lockline outlet heads. Though personally I might be more inclined to place the weir centrally, and have a return outlet at either end for a 'W' type flow arrangement typically seen on reef tanks.

 

[aeneas]

Just a couple of thoughts then:

• You need the return outlets much higher on the tank wall than indicated, as you have to remember that whenever you turn the pump off the water will back siphon down to that level.
• Just have one outlet on the far right would seem better given the weir position - you could make this a larger return pipe, and then split it with multiple lockline outlet heads. Though personally I might be more inclined to place the weir centrally, and have a return outlet at either end for a 'W' type flow arrangement typically seen on reef tanks.

Thanks @Wookii!
1) regarding height - I've not looked into plumbings yet in enough detail but are there not elements you could put into your pipe that enable only unidirectional water flow? For example like you have in gardening - water can flow only in one direction (i.e. into the tank) but cannot flow back (e.g. back siphon as you mention)? Is that not the case here?

2) positioning just one outflow to the right... hmm... that probably makes sense, but with 4000 liters per hour from a single exit (even if split outlet heads) would be a very powerful current wouldn't it? ...I agree a W format would make most sense, but in my case I would really try to not do any backside plumbing on the left side of the tank due to the glass sliding doors I have behind there...

 

[Wookii]

You can get non-return valves, but you are placing a significant reliance on a potential single point of failure - and if it does fail, the result will be significant flooding.

 

[aeneas]

Good news! We had a family meeting regarding this sliding glass door behind the future tank and general consensus was reached: the door is going out!
So: we now have much more manoeuvring space in terms of plumbing!!
I think it is best now to go back towards a more standard positioning of things - overflow box in the center and the returns on each side of the tank.
BIG QUESTION: do I need to drill and make classical return pipes with ugly plastic outflows or can I instead use two sets of the larger sized glass lily pipes instead?
I saw lily pipes from JARDLI on Amazon that are 20mm for 3/4" ID (19/25mm) Tubing; two sets of these with a Red Dragon 80W pump pushing the water I think these should be more than capable of handling ~600gph each with 1200gph combined flow? ...I also saw GreenAqua had their own glass work offering a 26mm lily pipe but they are pricing it as much as ADA... What do you guys think? Is this a possibility?

 

[aeneas]

Played with this central positioning concept a bit more:
Scenario A: 4x glass lily pipes such as Jardli 20mm or GreenAqua's 26mm lily pipes:

Scenario B: two y-split loc-line return jets with some good quality nozzle:

what do you guys think?

 

[Wookii]

Personally I would go for the Loclines every time - they’ll give you much more flexibility and control in fine tuning the flow directions, and will be much easier to clean and maintain. Glass lily pipes are a PITA to me, and a perfect example of form over function.

 

[jagillham]

have you thought about plumbing returns up through the base, its not uncommon in a custom reef build

It's possible as I've done, but you are very reliant on the non-return valve not failing at an inconvenient moment.

I did find it was jammed from completely closing on several occasions by a MTS shell.

The solution is to have the return pump within a filter sock which is taller than the water level of the sump to keep out any debris.

 

[not called Bob]

It's possible as I've done, but you are very reliant on the non-return valve not failing at an inconvenient moment.

View attachment 165779

I did find it was jammed from completely closing on several occasions by a MTS shell.

The solution is to have the return pump within a filter sock which is taller than the water level of the sump to keep out any debris.

I have found if you have any form of mollusc in your tank they will get every where and as you say if that valve fails because a creature or sediment stops it and you have no form of bund your going to have a very sorry mess. so having redundancy/fail safe is a very good idea