Celestial danios - one dead,and one looks unwell, please help.

[Abcdefg]

Hi,

I found a dead celestial danio this morning g and I'm not sure what to make of it, would any body have any guidance?


I saw it on the way out last night, hanging around at the bottom of the tank, and only swimming now and then to another spot, seemed to be a prisoner to the flow.

It looked 'thin' in the way that the others don't.

There is however another thin guy in there who doesn't look well:

-Doesn't eat
-doesnt move around much
-is about 40% of the size of the others, with no belly. (although I'm presuming that the male's are a bit smaller as there is some variation)

The one thing that I was wondering about is feeding.

I have been feeding jbl plankton pur and some tetra granules (I've forgotten which). However whilst feeding this morning I noticed that the general consensus from the danios is that they like to 'approach-food-and-be-next-to-it' rather than eat the stuff, I don't know whether this is because they where fed last night as well.

There are 8 remaining danios from a batch of 9 that I added 13 days ago. They are the first and only fish in the 3 month old tank.

I also have:
5 cherry shrimp added at the same time as the danios.
4 amanos (i did have 5 but one died 48 hours after adding), which have been in the tank for maybe 4 weeks.

All other livestock apart from the thin danio seems OK.

Nitrates 10 to 25 ppm
Nitrites = 0

Kh 1-2
Gh 6-7
pH? (I get different readings from different kits)




Is this a one off? Or a feeding issue? Or is there something else wrong?

Thanks

 

[Aqua360]

sounds like parasites are a possibility, I treat all of my fish as standard with praziquintel; otherwise id try to reduce your nitrates if possible

 

[zozo]

I oftenly see young fish shaped like that in many LFS, last time i looked at the celestial danios almost all of them had it. Also rasboras have this a lot, actualy if you look closer it occurs among almost all popular very small aquarium fish.. I had more than a few like that when i bought (ordered) about 30 boraras. All where rather pale and some having this sunken belly or concave shape all died, the discolored ones almost all of them too. Total loss 75%. What's left is round shaped colorfull and already healthy for over a year.. It could be an internal parasite, but personaly i more have the hunge this is a deformity cuased by inbreeding and they are the weak misshaped ones from the nest. Since these small fish are so popular and bred and shiped around by the hundreds for a few pennies a piece it is rather difficult and even less lucrative to screen and seperate the healthy from the weak. They obviously do not care and sell them anyway, the majority of people doesn't know.

The best you can do is, do not order them and do not buy what you can't see or pick yourself. Look very closely at the fish in the lfs.. If you see a lot of misshaped or pale color, do not buy them, do not believe the fairytale that the color will enhance when comming to rest and being fed properly. They are stressed out and probably malnurished and or inbred by the breeder. Than chances that the majority dies are rather high.. Keep looking and find an lfs that has a healthy batch in good shape and color. There is no valid reason for a fish being stressed in the lfs display tank, if they are there is something seriously wrong with the lfs or their supplier, say it and walk away and look elsewhere.

Educate yourself to recognise fish in bad shape, now you learned the hard way unfortunately. Read about fish diseases before you buy any, do not wait till they get sick. Anyway Skiny, deformed (concave shape), sunken stomag, pale color, blury or excessive bulging eyes, pinched fins, heavy breathing, skin/fin damage are a few obvious ones. Spine deformation like that poor little bugger in your pick could also could be cause by bad water quality, long term lower nitrite and ammonia poissoning can cause it.

The smaller they are the harder and longer you have to watch the tank you want to buy them from.. Especialy these tiny fish, if they are already that skinny and if caused by internal parasites they are more likely already beyond any help. Every tank contains some parasites thats rather common and not a problem, healthy fish fight them off with their own immune system, most parasites prey on the weak and old.

 

[castle]

The first couple of weeks are the hardest. CPDs are very strong fish, soft through to hard water, they'll live and breed happily(?). but the only loses I've ever had have been int he first couple of weeks. Some of mine are a few years old now.

This looks like a female, but with such deformation it's hard to tell.

Celestial pearl Danio in small tanks with poor ratios can kill each other through bullying, chasing and breeding. The females will loose all appetite and die. Larger numbers dither this issue, but numbers such as 5 and less, especially with more males than females can be a really nasty environment (small tanks). I'm just putting that out there. You won't see any schooling with numbers less than 20; at least in a way that's impressive.

As for shop species, breeding stock isn't that bad these days, a lot of deformities are culled from what I can tell. I added 10 more CPD's to my main brood to broaden the gene pool, all from MA, and although they're still a little transparent for my tastes, they're coming on okay. What I find fascinating is watching the hierarchy in the tank, only two males are in full colour, the rest are all paler. Colour in CPDs isn't always very deep. tangent, sorry!

If you can, get some frozen blood worms, defrost a cube, roughly chop them (like a garlic clove) and give that a try, they love that stuff.

I don't think it's a parasite, though as zozo said, if it came in weak that's a strong possibility. Personally, I think it's died of shock.

 

[Abcdefg]

sounds like parasites are a possibility, I treat all of my fish as standard with praziquintel; otherwise id try to reduce your nitrates if possible

Thanks, can I ask, do you do this in a preventative way before or after adding to the tank?

 

[Abcdefg]

Educate yourself to recognise fish in bad shape, now you learned the hard way unfortunately. Read about fish diseases before you buy any, do not wait till they get sick. Anyway Skiny, deformed (concave shape), sunken stomag, pale color, blury or excessive bulging eyes, pinched fins, heavy breathing, skin/fin damage are a few obvious ones. Spine deformation like that poor little bugger in your pick could also could be cause by bad water quality, long term lower nitrite and ammonia poissoning can cause it.

The smaller they are the harder and longer you have to watch the tank you want to buy them from.. Especialy these tiny fish, if they are already that skinny and if caused by internal parasites they are more likely already beyond any help. Every tank contains some parasites thats rather common and not a problem, healthy fish fight them off with their own immune system, most parasites prey on the weak and old.

Thanks zozo,

I did have a look in the shop but obviously not for long enough, they where all active so I thought they would largely be ok.

Would you advise treatment with anything (specific product and brand would be useful as I have shrimp in the tank, I was looking at 'esha 2000' is that the way to go?) ? I'm presuming that the thin one won't make it, but would like to help if possible, and would certainly like to prevent anything bad from spreading to other fish

Cheers

 

[Abcdefg]

The first couple of weeks are the hardest. CPDs are very strong fish, soft through to hard water, they'll live and breed happily(?). but the only loses I've ever had have been int he first couple of weeks. Some of mine are a few years old now.

This looks like a female, but with such deformation it's hard to tell.

Celestial pearl Danio in small tanks with poor ratios can kill each other through bullying, chasing and breeding. The females will loose all appetite and die. Larger numbers dither this issue, but numbers such as 5 and less, especially with more males than females can be a really nasty environment (small tanks). I'm just putting that out there. You won't see any schooling with numbers less than 20; at least in a way that's impressive.

As for shop species, breeding stock isn't that bad these days, a lot of deformities are culled from what I can tell. I added 10 more CPD's to my main brood to broaden the gene pool, all from MA, and although they're still a little transparent for my tastes, they're coming on okay. What I find fascinating is watching the hierarchy in the tank, only two males are in full colour, the rest are all paler. Colour in CPDs isn't always very deep. tangent, sorry!

If you can, get some frozen blood worms, defrost a cube, roughly chop them (like a garlic clove) and give that a try, they love that stuff.

I don't think it's a parasite, though as zozo said, if it came in weak that's a strong possibility. Personally, I think it's died of shock.

Thanks Castle, much apreciated

just to clarify, I now have 8, (presumably soon to be 7) in a 50 litre tank with lots of hiding places, I'm not sure of the ratios of male and female. I can try to get some pictures and work it out.

would you advise getting some more? and trying to get all females?


I was hoping to add a different species of small fish at some point though so was really looking for a practical amount of celestial danios that wouldn't be unhappy, but would leave room for another species.

Thanks again

 

[castle]

Is it a cube, or long? I'd stick with those for now, just in case it's a problem with your tank/parasites.As for tank mates, CPDs are best at around 22 celcius, so they're a little tricky to be in a community.

 

[MadMike]

From what I've researched, having seen a similar occurrence myself, it's called "chronic wasting disease". It can be caused by any number of things, one of which is an internal bacterial infection.

I have not had any success saving affected fish, however I have not had any more than one occurrence in a school of 6 Danios. It has totally bypassed the other 5.

My only recommendation is to keep up with weekly water changes and check your tank parameters regularly (temp, chemistry etc.) and get any dead fish out as soon as possible to prevent it spreading.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk

 

[Abcdefg]

Is it a cube, or long? I'd stick with those for now, just in case it's a problem with your tank/parasites.As for tank mates, CPDs are best at around 22 celcius, so they're a little tricky to be in a community.

the tank is 45 x 31 x 36cm , I have the water at 23.5 at the moment, if there aren't any deaths over the next 4 weeks for example, would it be advisable to get more?

cheers

 

[Abcdefg]

From what I've researched, having seen a similar occurrence myself, it's called "chronic wasting disease". It can be caused by any number of things, one of which is an internal bacterial infection.

I have not had any success saving affected fish

Thanks Mike,

So, did you treat with some kind of antibiotics? even if the thin one is doomed I'd like to help the others avoid problems.

Cheers

 

[zozo]

Would you advise treatment with anything (specific product and brand would be useful as I have shrimp in the tank, I was looking at 'esha 2000' is that the way to go?) ? I'm presuming that the thin one won't make it, but would like to help if possible, and would certainly like to prevent anything bad from spreading to other fish

Not me, i'm not the fish doctor you are looking for, it is much to difficult to diagnose via a picture in a forum. I'm just a enthousiast fish lover and learned over the years not to use medicine if it isn't 100% necessary and clear what you are treating. Some medicines can be more harmfull than the parasite or ilness you like to fight. As said every tank and probably fish containes a small amount of parasites, lurking and waiting latently present to attack a weak and old fish. Usualy when a lot of fish show severe infection it's a sign something is wrong in the tank making them all weak and susceptible.. Than treating is ok, but still need to figure out what more is wrong, keeping fish weak with bad husbandry or other mistakes than a treatment oftenly does more harm with its side effects than good.

Personaly, me also i only treat new arrivals with a mild dewormer.. For the rest a healthy stocked tank, should the same as in nature, deal itself with parasites and the sick and weak. Happens in nature too, a fish gets old or damaged by an attack, gets weak, attacked by parasites, it dies and it's carcass is eaten by other healthy fish without them getting sick at all. That's how it should work in an aquarium as well, preventively it is best to remove anything sick and dead.. But also this is not always the case with the tiny ones, i lost my fair share of fish over the years without short notice, only after a recount i noticed some missing. Some just die and get eaten within hours.. Don't ask me why or how, it happens..

 

[Abcdefg]

Ok,

It's lunch so I'm off to the shop I got them from to look in the tank, and see it I can see any similar deformities etc. Then I suppose I'll take it from there.

I still have a feeling I maybe should be looking in to giving them antibiotics, as it's more than one fish, I'd hate to see them go one by one over a week, rather than just giving them something as a precaution.


Thanks All,

 

[MadMike]

Thanks Mike,

So, did you treat with some kind of antibiotics? even if the thin one is doomed I'd like to help the others avoid problems.

Cheers

No, I try to avoid treatments as much as possible. Just try to make the water the best you can and watch your fish.

That said, Interpet sell an anti internal bacteria treatment. I have used this before without ill effects, but I'd still rather not use it. That's my personal opinion however.

I used anti fungus once and lost 3 cory catfish, one got stuck behind the heater which resulted in a huge ammonia spike and I ended up doing 5 water changes in 3 days to try to save the rest of my populous. I think the plants helped a lot with that one.

I swear by feeding cooked peas, skinned and mashed once a week. My fish love it and it's supposed to have a natural flushing effect for your fishies.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk

 

[Abcdefg]

Just went to the shop where I bought the danios and had a look in the tank, there where certainly a few deformed fish in there with pronounced curved spines, perhaps one in 30.

However they where more visibly deformed that either of my thin ones. The shop looked at the above picture and suggested perhaps a parasite, so they recommended and sold me a product with Flubendazole as the active ingredient.

maybe the fish where weak / stressed and succumbed to a parasite and it wont spread, but I'd like to be cautious.

I will do this cautiously tonight, however... the back of the pack says it's not safe for snails invertebrates or stingrays, I don't have any snails, so that's ok, and the shop said that they had used the same thing to treat their shrimp tanks so it should be safe.

'on the internet' the general consensus seems to be that Flubendazole is shrimp safe, so I'm presuming this will be ok, if I'm very careful not do overdose.

any thoughts on this treatment in particular?

Thanks

 

[Abcdefg]

I swear by feeding cooked peas, skinned and mashed once a week. My fish love it and it's supposed to have a natural flushing effect for your fishies

Thanks!, I will try this tomorrow, when hopefully they will be hungry again

 

[Abcdefg]

No, I try to avoid treatments as much as possible.

what would be the main disadvantages of using treatments? is it that they would mask problems with the tank and water quality? or that they have specific detrimental effects on the tank environment or inhabitants?

I don't mean in the sense that I'm thinking about blitzing the tank with all kinds of medications, but in my position I'm not sure what to do;

it's my first livestock in my first aquarium, I understand that losses could happen, but I'd like not to lose them all.

I feel like I have been taking things patiently, and researching stuff, and I have had the tank running for 2 months with no livestock hoping to get things in a good place, I don't want to panic, but I don't want to sit by idle while fish die.

What process do people go through when they spot an unwell fish in their tank? (with the caveat that they only have one tank)

Thanks

 

[zozo]

One thing you can be 99% sure of a fish with anatomical abnormality is beyond repair. A medication doesn't straighten a deformed spine back to shape. As said such an deformed spine can be the cause of long term poissoning with nitrite or ammonia (bad water quality), the fish will absorb this and it's muscles will cramp so severe it will deform it's body, very often to an extend it can not swim anymore. But it still can live quite some time like that.. Ofcourse it is hard to say, but it is best to assume that an animal deformed like that is most likely in pain and probably not eating well because it misserable and obviously loosing weight and getting sick and gets susceptible to parasitic or bacterial infections.. It's a domino effect not starting with an infection. In such a case, treating the infection wont help a deformed fish anymore.

what would be the main disadvantages of using treatments?

Also hard to say, read the descripton in the package it tells you what side effects you can expect.. And all meds are not tested on all fish sp. it always is a gamble. For example 2 years ago i bought a school of cory's and after a week they showed beeing sick, i looked with a microscope and i found Trichodina (external parasite) i went to the LFS and they gave me some stuff from Colombo "perhaps this will help", forgoten the active ingredient, but after doing some research before admistering it, fortunately, i found reports about this particular substance as poissones to catfish sp. So with using it i probably would have killed all the corys instead of helping them. Corydoras are catfish.

Anyhow i doubt your Danios are infected.. Read this

C. margaritatus to quickly become one of the most hyped fishes the hobby has ever known....

It’s also been subject to intensive commercial breeding and specimens with spots or blotches instead of stripes in the pelvic and anal fins or morphological deformities are now common in the ornamental trade (see images).

The other includes those in which anatomical development stops at a point where adult still resemble a larval form

Looks familiar?.. Perhaps, (most likely) yours are inbred weaklings too.. That's something you will not hear in the LFS, it doesn't sell..

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/

 

[MirandaB]

I had a particularly bad experience with cpds earlier in the year and that finished it for me as they are just too weak and inbred these days.
Personally I would be extremely wary of any fish presenting wasting symptoms coupled with a bent spine and lethargy.
Mycobacteriosis (fish TB) is always in my mind whenever I see fish like this and while I don't wish to unduly alarm you it is something that you need to consider as a possibility.

 

[MirandaB]

I will add that whatever was wrong with my cpds,and the symptoms were similar,it did not respond to any meds I tried.
These included worming with eSHa NDX,eSHa 2000 and NT Labs anti internal bacteria so I had to make the difficult decision to euthanize the remaining stock