Cherry shrimp dying off

[BenjP]

Hi all,

I'm wondering if anyone can help because I'm completely baffled.

I've recently started seeing my cherry shrimp die off in pretty alarming numbers - probably on average five a day - in my 60p. This began around a month ago. Water parameters check out, and I've tested for copper. I'm dosing Tropica ferts (4ml daily) and injecting co2. Other than a couple of pest snails that must have hitchhiked in on some plants I recently introduced, I've done nothing out of the ordinary bearing in mind the scape is around 3yrs old.

That said, I have noticed that there are far fewer adult shrimp and many of those that remain have begun to lose their colouration. See the pic for an example of what I mean.

Any thoughts or suggestions on what the cause might be would be really helpful!

Cheers.

 

[MichaelJ]

How are the remaining shrimps behaving? are they lethargic? What are you feeding them? What’s your water source?

The lack of color suggests molting problems, stress, dietary issues...

Water parameters check out

What's your Ca / Mg levels (GH) and TDS level?

and I've tested for copper. I'm dosing Tropica ferts (4ml daily)

Except for the remote possibility of Copper or Zinc accumulation (if your WC amount/frequency is very low) or your water source is high you should be fine - you really need lab grade equipment to test for either unless it’s very high -way beyond toxic - levels.

A couple of additional things I can think of is lack of Oxygen, too much CO2 or malnutrition... gaseous release (H2S) from the substrate is another possibility (given it’s an older tank, but you would likely notice the smell).

A spike in Chlorine or Chloramine could also be an issue (happens quite often) - both are super toxic to shrimps.

How old are the shrimps that are dying off (approx) ? Keep in mind that Cherries are really only excepted to live around 1-2 perhaps 3 years under ideal conditions, but a bunch dying off all of a sudden suggest they are not dying off from natural causes (i.e age).

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Hanuman]

All has been said above. One request, can you please post a picture of the tank?
Also have you checked that your CO2 setup hasn’t gone legs up and that CO2 has suddenly increased? This could happen in low end regulators with bad need valves.

 

[BenjP]

Hi folks, thanks for the responses. Appreciate your help.

TDS is around 180 right now - tends to hover between 150 and 200 depending on the day of the week. I'm doing a 50% water change weekly, and the filter's cleaned out every fortnight. The Co2 levels seem fine based on my drop checker colour and the behaviour of their tankmates (the handful of amanos I have are perfectly fine and behaving as normal). I use tap water (which is soft, given that I'm in Cornwall) treated with Prime. I need to retest my GH levels.

How are the remaining shrimps behaving? are they lethargic? What are you feeding them? What’s your water source?

The lack of color suggests molting problems, stress, dietary issues...

Some seem ok, others not so much. There's no consistent pattern of behaviour, but overall I'd say they're more lethargic than usual. I feed them Hikari algae wafers - same stuff I've been feeding this colony for the last two and a bit years.

How old are the shrimps that are dying off (approx) ? Keep in mind that Cherries are really only excepted to live around 1-2 perhaps 3 years under ideal conditions

This is the bit that has me stumped: it's a mixture of juveniles and adults. If it was just the adults dying I'd perhaps write that off as old age - but it's not.

All has been said above. One request, can you please post a picture of the tank?
Also have you checked that your CO2 setup hasn’t gone legs up and that CO2 has suddenly increased? This could happen in low end regulators with bad need valves.

Here's a pic as of a couple of weeks ago. The Blyxa/Rotala/lilaeopsis are all relative new additions hence them looking so unruly.

Actually, on the subject of Co2, I did recently buy a new Life Aqua regulator after my previous one from Co2Art developed leaks. That's only been running for a week or so, and so it's introduction precedes these issues.

Cheers.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Nice tank.

I use tap water (which is soft, given that I'm in Cornwall) treated with Prime. I need to retest my GH levels.

I would add <"some hardness and alkalinity">. It is likely that your soft water is even <"softer during the winter">, because of increased rainfall.

You can add a calcium carbonate (CaCO3) supplement. like <"cuttle "bone"> or <"crushed Cockle shell">.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

gaseous release (H2S) from the substrate is another possibility (given it’s an older tank, but you would likely notice the smell).

You wouldn't until it's far too late. H2S dissolves very well in the water and does not smell while dissolved.
Besides, H2S is unstable in oxygenated water and quite quickly reacts into sulfate. HOWEVER, it's still dangerous in the zone right above the substrate. And it may cause pH drop while oxidized (sulfide => sulfate): H2S + 2 O2 => H2SO4.
I doubt hydrogen sulfide is the issue in this case because more signs of an unhealthy condition (plants suffering) would be present if H2S were there.
I would never underestimate chronic O2 deficit. From my observation, shrimps are very sensitive to that.

 

[Andy Pierce]

The Blyxa/Rotala/lilaeopsis are all relative new additions hence them looking so unruly.

How recently were these added? Sometimes commercial pesticides used on plants can be carried over and cause problems. Do your shrimp deaths related in time to when the new plants were added?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I doubt hydrogen sulfide is the issue in this case because more signs of an unhealthy condition (plants suffering) would be present if H2S were there.
I would never underestimate chronic O2 deficit. From my observation, shrimps are very sensitive to that.

I don't think it is H2S production either looking at the tank. I'm not a CO2 user, but an issue shrimps have is that they have <"haemocyanin"> as their oxygen / CO2 transporter and it is less efficient than haemoglobin.

How recently were these added? Sometimes commercial pesticides used on plants can be carried over and cause problems. Do your shrimp deaths related in time to when the new plants were added?

That is a really good point. Have a look at <"Wipe Out">, but it a grisly read.

I'm still leaning towards the water having become too soft for Cherry Shrimps, but pesticide residue is a definite possibility.

cheers Darrel

 

[BenjP]

How recently were these added? Sometimes commercial pesticides used on plants can be carried over and cause problems. Do your shrimp deaths related in time to when the new plants were added?

That's a really good point, Andy. I think the two roughly coincided. That said, the Blyxa originally came from a Tropica culture and the Rotala/Lilaeopsis from Aquaflora. I didn't think either company used harmful pesticides, but I may be imagining it? If that is the case, what's the best way to deal with it given they're pretty established now?

Hi all,
Nice tank.

I would add <"some hardness and alkalinity">. It is likely that your soft water is even <"softer during the winter">, because of increased rainfall.

You can add a calcium carbonate (CaCO3) supplement. like <"cuttle "bone"> or <"crushed Cockle shell">.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel, I think I'll do that. Some odd fluctuations in water quality over the last year which I'm guessing is to do with the lack of rainfall and our reservoirs being at historically low levels. Will give it a go.

Incidentally, how difficult would it be to switch over to RO water? It's something I've considered doing in the past, but it always seemed overkill. Is it even worth the trouble?

Thanks.

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi folks, thanks for the responses. Appreciate your help.

TDS is around 180 right now - tends to hover between 150 and 200 depending on the day of the week. I'm doing a 50% water change weekly, and the filter's cleaned out every fortnight. The Co2 levels seem fine based on my drop checker colour and the behaviour of their tankmates (the handful of amanos I have are perfectly fine and behaving as normal). I use tap water (which is soft, given that I'm in Cornwall) treated with Prime. I need to retest my GH levels.

Some seem ok, others not so much. There's no consistent pattern of behaviour, but overall I'd say they're more lethargic than usual. I feed them Hikari algae wafers - same stuff I've been feeding this colony for the last two and a bit years.

This is the bit that has me stumped: it's a mixture of juveniles and adults. If it was just the adults dying I'd perhaps write that off as old age - but it's not.

Here's a pic as of a couple of weeks ago. The Blyxa/Rotala/lilaeopsis are all relative new additions hence them looking so unruly.

Hi @BenjP, I threw out a bunch of possible causes above in no particular order or importance.

I would do the following:

Measure your GH as soon as possible. Ideally your GH should be around 5-7 in roughly 3:1 - 4:1 Ca:Mg ratio. Say 21 ppm of Ca 7 ppm of Mg (which happens to be about what I've been running my shrimp tank at for a long time now). Good thing if you could obtain a recent water report to see how much Mg you have there. You might have to add both Ca and Mg (such as CaSO4 and MgSO4 powder with the WC).

Change your food source, just in case - not unlikely your batch of wafters might have gone bad or was bad to begin with. I.e. get a brand new batch of the Algae wafters and some King Shrimp minerals especially if the shrimps have been low on Calcium for a while. (most wafter blends include Calcium btw.)

Add an air-stone to increase oxygenation.

If pesticides or pathogens from recently introduced plants are in play here as suggested by @Andy Pierce, the only remedy I can think of are a couple of massive water changes over the course of a couple of days.

Double check the CO2!

The bigger deal would be to switching over to RO water to be in full control of your water. However, its not that complicated or expensive for a smaller tank... With a 60 liter tank and a weekly 50% WC you only need 30 liters a week. That is fairly easy and cheap to accomplish with a small 4 stage RODI system such as the Aquactic life RO Buddie... or collect rain water if that is an option (Darrel would want me to suggest that ). Using RO water will give you peace of mind in terms of the consistency and constituent of your WC water.




Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

That said, the Blyxa originally came from a Tropica culture and the Rotala/Lilaeopsis from Aquaflora. I didn't think either company used harmful pesticides, but I may be imagining it?

You are right, neither of those will have come into contact with systemic pesticides.

Incidentally, how difficult would it be to switch over to RO water?

It gives you a blank slate, so it allows you to <"decouple dGH & dKH etc"> and create <"designer water">. It is mainly people with alkaline tap water who use it, but if you start with soft water youwill have less waste water, RO membranes will last longer etc.

Darrel would want me to suggest that ).

Personally, <"I don't use RO">, I'm happy <"with rainwater"> and I use my <"hard tap supply as a remineraliser"> when required. I usually follow the <"path of least resistance"> and I keep the <"fish and plants that survive in the water I have">, without too much intervention.

I'd still guess it is a low dGH / dKH issue.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

I'd still guess it is a low dGH / dKH issue.

Seems very likely.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[_Maq_]

If pesticides or pathogens from recently introduced plants are in play here as suggested by @Andy Pierce, the only remedy I can think of are a couple of massive water changes over the course of a couple of days.

Activated carbon may help and definitely do no harm.

 

[MichaelJ]

Activated carbon may help and definitely do no harm.

True and definitely no harm done.

Cheers.
Michael