Circulation??

Discussion in 'Filters, Filtration and Pumps' started by mick b, 12 Aug 2008.

  1. mick b

    mick b Member

    Messages:
    80
    Hi All,

    Very new to this, so sorry if it's a dumb newbie question :oops: , but;

    I have read on varied threads about circulation to distribute ferts etc and they seem to suggest x 10
    But, I also note, lots of surface aggitiation de-gasses C02, so I'm looking for calrification please;

    As I come from the Discus side of things, my tank circulates (turns-over) the total volume, through the filters' approx 3 to 5 time per hour (dependant upon filter-foams/cleaning etc), constantly taking water from the bottom and distributing it across the surface.

    When refering to circulation (planted tank) are we talking water-out, and back into tank, or is it just 'stirring' the water around 10 times an hour? minimising surface exchange??

    Cheers, Mick B
     
  2. Egmel

    Egmel Member

    Messages:
    724
    Location:
    Guildford, Surrey, UK
    It's a bit of both, the main aim is to ensure that all the plants get the flow and therefore the nutrients. One of the easiest ways to do this is with a large external filter which means no powerheads in the tank. However some people have externals and powerheads.

    The 10x rule is a rule of thumb that people use when choosing filters and is based on the fact that a filter will rarely live up to its rated LPH.

    If you're injecting CO2 then minimising surface agitation reduces the amount of CO2 you waste, especially in an open top tank. With an external this can be achieved by having the spray bar under the level of the water.

    Hope this helps.
     
  3. ceg4048

    ceg4048 Expert/Global Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    8,952
    Location:
    Chicago, USA
    Hi,
    Surface agitation has nothing to do with circulation and turnover rate per se. When filtering a planted tank we only need a mild surface agitation to help break up any surface film and to help a little with oxygenation. Too much agitation causes degassing of the CO2 which is sel defeating.

    The circulation and turnover rates are also different:
    Circulation delivers nutrients to the surface of the leaf and moves organic waste away from the leaf. This can be accomplished with a powerhead or a submersible pump for example.

    Turnover in our context is specifically the movement of water through the filter for nitrification purposes. As you are no doubt aware this is important because we want to reduce the NH4 content as quickly and efficiently as possible not just for the sake of the fish but also to keep it away from alga spores which use NH4 as a germination trigger.

    The 10X rule can apply to the filter turnover only but this is not exclusive. If we have a weak filter then we can use circulation via other methods such as powerheads in order supplement the filters flow and to help move the water for nutrient delivery purposes. Therefore you can have a combined throughput of filter(s) + supplementary devices to achieve the 10X or more rule.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Cheers,
     
  4. mick b

    mick b Member

    Messages:
    80
    Thanks Guys,

    I'm ok with how, it was what I was trying to achieve 8)

    I think I'm OK with circulation as I rotate the water around a vertical axis (external pump & heater) back via nozzels just below surface, plus the action of 21 Discus tend to stir things up a bit :lol:

    Plus the U/Gravel system turns water top to bottom 3 to 5 times/hour.

    Thanks for the explanations, much appreciated.

    Cheers, Mick B
     
  5. aaronnorth

    aaronnorth Member

    Messages:
    3,955
    Location:
    worksop, nottinghamshire
    the UGF wont help your plants.
     
  6. mick b

    mick b Member

    Messages:
    80
    Hi Aaronnorth,

    Understand and appreciate your comment, but like life, it's not quite that simple :)

    Areas of the UG are not deep-vacced, only surface (1/2") vacced and loaded with flourite, other areas are deep-vacced (up to 7" deep pea gravel to 1.5" pebbles) but no plants are rooted in those areas.

    It's a compromise, but with the fish load, it works for me etc 8)

    Cheers, Mick B
     
  7. aaronnorth

    aaronnorth Member

    Messages:
    3,955
    Location:
    worksop, nottinghamshire
    the roots will eventually get to the bottom unless they are trimmed though.
     
  8. jay

    jay Member

    Messages:
    693
    Location:
    Harrow, Middlesex
    Just throw a load of microsorum and bolbitis on wood. :D
    Then the UG filter won't harm them, plus they both look awesome with Discus... especially 21!!!
     
  9. mick b

    mick b Member

    Messages:
    80
    Thanks Jay,

    Have java fern & anubias on wood, I did have bolbitis, but it died back?, however, since using EI (only 2 weeks so early days), the J-fern & Anubias are starting to re-grow, so once they prove stable, I do intend to re-try some bolbitis (Have you any spare? ;) )

    Cheers, Mick B
     
  10. jay

    jay Member

    Messages:
    693
    Location:
    Harrow, Middlesex
    No chance on that I'm afraid mick.
    Might be getting rid of some java fern 'narrow' though. Since I've been doing EI I've been getting about 6 new plantlets from the leaves every week!!
    Going to let them grow out a bit and then see what I can use, anything left over will be going in the swap/sell forum.

    The thing with bolbitis, I think it needs relatively soft water (Co2 should do that) but it likes water movement.
    Once mine starts growing more and i figure out how to propagate it, I'll let you know. :)
     
  11. mick b

    mick b Member

    Messages:
    80
    Thanks Jay :D

    Since starting EI, my Java fern is having babies (plantlets on leaf edges, not sure which veriety it is??) but looks like I will also have some plantlets to re-plant sparce areas etc :D

    Cheers, Mick B
     
  12. Ed Seeley

    Ed Seeley Member

    Messages:
    3,262
    Location:
    Nottingham
    CO2 won't soften your water. It will lower the pH but doesn't remove dissolved solids that cause hardness. If you want to soften your water you need to remove them and that really means RO or deionisation. CO2 will acidify the water.

    Lots of people do seem to find very good water movement important when growing Bolbotis.
     
  13. jay

    jay Member

    Messages:
    693
    Location:
    Harrow, Middlesex
    Sorry, yeah thats what I meant, the KH doesn't really matter. Its the acidity that it seems to like. In my experience anyway.. mine only took off once my water lowered in pH.

    Sure theres peeps out there that have had great success with it in more alkaline water. Just my experience.
     

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