Consistency Deficiency

[_Maq_]

I can tell you my routine. I always mineralize RODI water, and I add all minerals according to the volume I change. My stock solutions are made in a way that 1ml of given solution adds - say - 20 µM of X to 5 litres. If I change 45 litres, then I add 9 ml of given solution. (I've got used to do all my formulas in moles, for very practical reasons.)

 

[Hufsa]

So ive got the next step of "Operation Improve Plant Health" laid out, im still on Step 1 but have divided it into smaller sub-steps to prevent the evil goblin that lives on my shoulder from doing them all at the same time 😉

Step 1: (Right now) Eliminate chlorosis in plants, make sure macro nutrient levels are sufficient to avoid any obvious mobile nutrient deficiency, make sure water change routines provide nutrient stability.
Sit very firmly on hands and dont do anything wild for a time

Part B: Fe is currently at 0.3 (+0.2Gluconate), plants got ~75% better in new growth. Other traces still at lower level. Raise other traces, especially Mn to see if we can get the last 25% of chlorosis gone, and raise Mo to see if nitrate-deficiency-looking symptoms improve.
DONT: start messing around with creative front loading and unchelated traces at the same time as Part B.

My thinking: Plants are getting pretty rich iron dosing right now compared to the rest of the traces. In fact the water turns slightly pink by the end of the week. This should indicate that Fe supply is unlimited, since Fe EDDHA is building up a bit and turning the water pink. There is still at least 25% of chlorosis looking symptoms left in the new growth of plants. Mn is a likely candidate for the last ~25%. So I want to raise this one to a more normal relationship with Fe.
1 : 0.5 (Fe : Mn) is more or less the highest ratio used out there, quite a few mixes have 1 : 0.3 or lower Mn. Im not convinced this matters so much, I think it just needs to be close enough and the plants will fix the rest through their clever uptake mechanisms. The goal right now is not to find the absolutely most perfect-est amount of each trace, but to get plant growth as close to ~99% as I can get. I can mess around with that last 1% of optimization until I die of old age I think.
The reason I am raising all of the traces instead of just Mn is because im not really keen to play nutrient deficiency whack-a-mole with trace deficiency symptoms all the way down the list if I can avoid it.
So im picking a sensible ratio and bringing them all in line. My Mo dosing has usually been on the low side because this is how Marschner/Epstein has it written. Since my plants are looking a little pale all over and plants need sufficient Mo to make nitrate reductase, im bringing this one up a fair bit more as well. Mo is relatively unproblematic to have a little high and requirements for this trace varies a lot between plants.
So its technically more than one change at once, but im making an executive decision to combine these small trace things

So new micro mix should look like this:
0.3 Fe (From 0.275 DTPA and 0.025 EDDHA)
0.15 Mn
0.06 B
0.06 Zn
0.018 Cu
0.009 Mo
0.0001 Ni (Not raised this one, my tap water contains enough on paper, leaving in a symbolic amount just in case)

I havent made it yet, past Hufsa said I have to wait at least one week to implement any changes
I will try to make the new batch soon so its ready for next week.

The new micro mix should probably be allowed to work for two weeks in order to observe any improvements, although im tempted to perform some PH profiles if the weather will allow me to put the lid on the tank. I guess we'll see what I end up doing. Making sure CO2 is stable doesnt really interfere with chlorosis, and it would be nice to get that nailed down again before much further nutrient-troubleshooting.
The ideal outcome of Part B would be resolving the last 25% of chlorosis, and an improvement in what could seem like a nitrogen deficiency but shouldnt be (see below)

The rest of the plan depends on how the plants are looking at this point, I need see how things work out first.
But tentatively the next thing after that might be:

Part C: Evaluate health of old growth.

Step???: At a stable point, try increasing only K to see what effect this has.

I am seeing some indications of mobile nutrients not being entirely right. Hygrophila polysperma and Tonina could clearly be much greener / deeper green in older growth. Pantanal gets really tattered old leaves (this might be carbon just based on this plants reputation). Ludwigia sp. Marilia is very quick to drop older leaves. Both Cuba and Pantanal should be bigger in diameter overall.
Current N dosing isnt particularly low compared to popular dosing regimes, as of last week its 2 N frontloaded and 2 N over the week (previously 1 N & 2 N).
That comes out to ~17 ppm as NO3. Based on this, nitrogen isnt really my first suspect. Carbon should be considered because it is highly mobile and also what the plant uses the most of. The overall level I would say is pretty good, and the flow is getting everywhere thanks to the two spray bars. Stability could be better, im not sure if fluctuations show up in old growth, I thought it was more associated with stunting and curling and general unhappiness in the growing point of the plant. I dont know for sure.
Ive mentioned I would like to try to raise K on its own just to see what happens, so this might be the first thing I'll try.

Ill be back on sunday for the regularly scheduled picture update For now I hope you will enjoy this small montage of fat noodles falling out of a hole in the wood. It was dinner-o-clock

View attachment 192534

View attachment 192535

To be continued

Oh and these seeds are from Cryptocoryne striolata "Mini". The seed pods never opened on their own, but when I carefully cracked one open a bunch of seemingly fully formed seeds popped out.
I planted them in a tub of Aquasoil, will let you guys know if they sprout or not 🌱

 

[Hufsa]

"Empty" tank with some relocated plants
Dont mind the floating Cryptocoryne, its going traveling tomorrow 😊


Stargrass still at ~75% green, im very keen to see the outcome over the coming week if it improves or not with the new micro mix.
Im really hoping it improves, that will mean I have the faintest clue what is going on, otherwise im going to have to start from scratch again 😵


Pantanals got pulled out of the Aquasoil pot and moved to the back wall, and they DIDNT stunt just from moving, which might sound pitiful to some but this is a record for my setup, pretty pleased with that
One step closer to growing like a weed
They still look hungry AF or something of the sort, and you can see they have a lot of slimy thread algae on old growth. No coincidence this.
The other quick growing plant species that are doing well at the moment are virtually algae free, while those that are not so happy like the Pantanal still have a lot of thread algae.
I assume that its either a case of the plant not being able to defend those leaves, or that the plant is withdrawing stuff or leaking stuff from those leaves that cause the thread algae to grow there.

Even the two stunted tops I left behind in the Aquasoil are coming around now that their pushy brothers moved away.
Definitely seems like the tank has crossed over from "untenable" to "almost ok" territory for Pantanals.

Right now my tank contains many species of Ludwigia and just one species of Ammannia, so if it comes down to it and I have to pick, then I may have to go for conditions that the hungry Ludwigias find favorable.
I havent given up on Ammannia pedicellata Golden yet, but right now it is taking a back seat while I work on getting the all other plants happy.


Excuse the mess of Ludwigia sp. Marilia all over the tank, im trying to propagate more of this plant as quickly as I can.
Baby invitro H'ra is coming around, slowly.. The shoots have H'ra form now and some kind of color, but they are still super small.
I remember the OJ and Pink/Rosa also took what felt like an eternity to gain full size from the invitro cups.

From left to right, pitiful Golden 😅 and newly trimmed trio of mid size plants. I think the Blyxa will like this corner better, a bit less light than the center of the tank.
The crypts have been moved away from here, too much light here for them.


Left side two weeks ago, right side today. Might not be all the way there yet but much much better aint it 😍


Polysperma also stuck at ~75% green


Rotala rotundifolia "Orange Juice" took offense at something after the last trim and replant, not sure what.
Some mild stunting and curling of the tops. Not losing any sleep over it unless it keeps happening.


Two of the Cuba stems are looking ok although small, while the other two stems are.. uh.. trying their best 🤭


No stunting of the Super Red this time


R. mac has had a similar "err what" moment as the OJ.
The Myriophyllum sp. Guyana at the bottom of this picture needs to receive some sort of medal for "Least f**ks given" or something.
This plant seems entirely oblivious to any nutrient issue or anything else going on with the tank, its just growing without any care in the world.
A definite 10/10 if you need something bombproof that doesnt grow fast.

 

[shangman]

Can’t wait to see what beautiful little gifts you’ve bought yourself! 😍 love a special Plant gift

 

[Hufsa]

Summary for present time @Happi and future Hufsa
Current / yesterday & today forward

"Front loaded Macro" (dosed on sunday after 75% WC based on full tank volume) (I didnt want to change anything about the macros now, wanted to see mainly effect of micro change)
2 N (100% KNO3) = 8.8 NO3
0.26 P = 0.8 PO4
5.92 K

"Daily dosed Macro" weekly ppms:
2 N (50% Urea & 50% KNO3) = 8.8 NO3
0.26 P = 0.8 PO4
3.12 K

Both macros total:
4 N = ~17 NO3 (Any nitrogen deficiency is unlikely imo when this one is relatively high)
0.52 P = 1.6 PO4
9.04 K

Micro (dosed daily) weekly ppms:
0.3 Fe (From 0.275 DTPA and 0.025 EDDHA)
0.15 Mn
0.06 B
0.06 Zn
0.018 Cu
0.009 Mo
0.0001 Ni
(No extra gluconate dosed this week)

Other details:
TDS before water change 153. After ~75% water change but before ferts TDS 123. Today after frontloaded macro and daily dose of macro and micro 134 TDS.
NO3 before water change possibly somewhere between 15-30 ppm*. This is an increase from the ~4-5 ppm* from previous weeks with lower macro dosing.
(*Usual disclaimer: Test kits may cause eye cancer, do not take too seriously)

Weekly water change of 75% is the new routine (until its not) 😁
Cleaning the two external canister filters alternately, this week the Ultramax, next week Eheim.

 

[erwin123]

The Toninas look fantastic!

I've got some Toninas in my tank that I hope will adapt and grow... but in terms of their colour I would say that they are 'in between' these 2 photos - not as pale as the left, but lighter green that the wonderful green of the plants on the right... so I'm scrutinising the changes that you did between these two photos to figure out whether there is anything I can consider to help my Toninas...

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The Toninas look fantastic!

Left side two weeks ago, right side today. Might not be all the way there yet but much much better aint it

They look much better.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

@Hufsa , I'd like to ask you about the Toninas. The comparison is indeed striking. However, I can't see whether those very leaves suffering from chlorosis improved, or - as rules say - it's only new leaves which look better now.
I've been taught that leaves once chlorotic cannot repair, so?

 

[plantnoobdude]

@Hufsa , I'd like to ask you about the Toninas. The comparison is indeed striking. However, I can't see whether those very leaves suffering from chlorosis improved, or - as rules say - it's only new leaves which look better now.
I've been taught that leaves once chlorotic cannot repair, so?

You are looking at the plants from above, the new healthy growth is covering the old chlorosis growth.

On Slightly less related note; tonina leaves are arranged in accordance to golden ratio. Beautiful!!! 😍

huge link sorry

https ://elhazar.tumblr.com/post/165979357760/the-mathematical-beauty-of-tonina-fluvalitis/amp

Purposely put space after https to avoid a huge image lol.

 

[Hufsa]

They look much better.

Nice to hear from you again Darrel 🥰

I'd like to ask you about the Toninas. The comparison is indeed striking. However, I can't see whether those very leaves suffering from chlorosis improved, or - as rules say - it's only new leaves which look better now.
I've been taught that leaves once chlorotic cannot repair, so?

I believe the plants were suffering from an "Everything deficiency*" that fateful week when the before pictures were taken.
So not only chlorosis of new growth but also paleness of old growth.
A decrease in water changes and a small increase in fertilizer was basically what I changed to result in the "after" pictures.
I think old growth got greener again also as macro levels improved.

*For newer readers, my journal used to be called "Everything Deficiency" 😁 At one point the addendum "Thinking Toxicity" was added, as I am prone to overthinking and was messing around too much. Now the title is Consistency Deficiency, another personal failing of mine 😉 But enough of that

You are looking at the plants from above, the new healthy growth is covering the old chlorosis growth.

I think you and Maq may be partially right, once a leaf has grown out chlorotic it tends to stay that way, unless it is still somewhat new, then I have observed that it may get greener as time goes by. It seems the plant is able to get some iron to the leaf eventually, alleviating some of the historical symptoms. I found a literature reference for this phenomenon but of course I cant remember where that was at the moment.
My older pictures showing Hydrocotyle Tripartita growing week by week displays this effect, where the newest leaves are chlorotic, and then they sort of fill in a little bit later on.
Its possible I have misunderstood the whole thing though.

On Slightly less related note; tonina leaves are arranged in accordance to golden ratio. Beautiful!!! 😍

Ah no wonder, Tonina is a favorite of mine and especially beautiful viewed from above. I like the simplistic almost cartoony leaves and the luminous green color that healthy stems display. Theres not many plants just like it 😍

 

[_Maq_]

We can see it in spring on trees that the very new leaves are light green and the colour gets deeper a bit later. Perhaps this is in some connection with your observation.
It makes me re-consider my opinion as to when exactly a new leaf can be considered 'finished'.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

However, I can't see whether those very leaves suffering from chlorosis improved, or - as rules say - it's only new leaves which look better now.
I've been taught that leaves once chlorotic cannot repair, so?

I was wondering about that as well. I didn't know if new leaves had grown in the three weeks?

Assuming they haven't? Then it must have been a combination of effects, one mobile element and one immobile one. Unfortunately I don't know enough about plant physiology to get any further.

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

Assuming they haven't then it must have been a combination of effects, one mobile element and one immobile one.

One more explanation comes to my mind. The sequence of creating structural tissues first and then 'filling' the space in-between with chlorophyll?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

One more explanation comes to my mind. The sequence of creating structural tissues first and then 'filling' the space in-between with chlorophyll?

You can definitely get that. If you have chlorotic plants, where the deficiency is one of more of the mobile elements, you get an <"almost instant greening"> (chlorophyll synthesis <"Chlorophyll Biosynthesis in Higher Plants">) when you add the magic ingredient.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Unfortunately I don't know enough about plant physiology to get any further.

Somebody else might though? I'm guessing that the answer lies somewhere in this bit, amongst the enzymes:

....... The Chlorophyll (Chl) biosynthesis pathway in higher plants is complex and is mediated by more than 17 enzymes........

The formation of Chl can be subdivided into four parts: (1) synthesis of 5-aminolevulinic acid (ALA), the precursor of Chl and heme; (2) formation of a pyrrole ring porphobilinogen from the condensation reaction of two molecules of ALA and assembly of four pyrroles leading to the synthesis of the first closed tetrapyrrole having inversion of ring D, i.e., uroporphyrinogen III; (3) synthesis of protoporphyrin IX via several decarboxylation and oxygenation reactions, and (4) insertion of Mg to the protoporphyrin IX (PPIX) moiety steering it to the Mg-branch of tetrapyrrole synthesis leading to the formation of Chl........

cheers Darrel

 

[Hufsa]

....... The Chlorophyll (Chl) biosynthesis pathway in higher plants is complex and is mediated by more than 17 enzymes........

The formation of Chl can be subdivided into four parts: (1) synthesis of 5-aminolevulinic acid (ALA), the precursor of Chl and heme; (2) formation of a pyrrole ring porphobilinogen from the condensation reaction of two molecules of ALA and assembly of four pyrroles leading to the synthesis of the first closed tetrapyrrole having inversion of ring D, i.e., uroporphyrinogen III; (3) synthesis of protoporphyrin IX via several decarboxylation and oxygenation reactions, and (4) insertion of Mg to the protoporphyrin IX (PPIX) moiety steering it to the Mg-branch of tetrapyrrole synthesis leading to the formation of Chl........

Hufsa see plant
Plant no green
Put stuff in tank
Maybe green
Yess

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Hufsa see plant
Plant no green
Put stuff in tank
Maybe green
Yess

Pretty much the same for me, which is why plant physiology (and <"biochemistry generally">) remains a knowledge black-hole for me.

cheers Darrel

 

[plantnoobdude]

Grown under full EI and 1.0ppm Fe from apfuk micro nutrients.



Swapped to tenso at 0.1ppm Fe dtpa and 0.067 Mn EDTA. Very Very quick greening response, within a few days the tips showed greener colours.


Currently they look like this,


Crowns nice and big, no deficiency. Over one inch width. Using my own custom mix.
0.0875 Fe weekly. Grown it as Low as 0.0125 Fe weekly, but it needs lowwwww gh for that to happen. At the time I was running something like 1 shh.

 

[Hufsa]

View attachment 193150View attachment 193151
Crowns nice and big, no deficiency. Over one inch width. Using my own custom mix.
0.0875 Fe weekly. Grown it as Low as 0.0125 Fe weekly, but it needs lowwwww gh for that to happen. At the time I was running something like 1 shh.

Hmm one inch is.. checks guide to stupid-measurements ..2.54 cm 😉
Mine still have a little bit to gain in size then.
I wonder if we can directly compare green color, your seem slightly denser on chlorophyll, but mine has a much more yellow lime tone, I think this may be to the high yellow tones of my light vs the basically missing yellow spectrum of yours.
So overall intensity might be comparable but not hue, if that makes sense 🤔

 

[plantnoobdude]

I wonder if we can directly compare green color, your seem slightly denser on

Hmm I’m trying to think of something.but I’m not sure, take a picture out in daylight? Seems stupid lol.

I think this may be to the high yellow tones of my light vs the basically missing yellow spectrum of yours.

yeah I think so.

So overall intensity might be comparable but not hue, if that makes sense 🤔

Perhaps? Those tonina are being blasted by something like 150-200 par tho.