Consistency Deficiency

[plantnoobdude]

Make the tank clean again!
-And the algae will pay for

Political are we? Hufsa 2024?

 

[Hufsa]

Political are we? Hufsa 2024?

My campaign will be Moss to the people!
and also eat the rich

 

[xZaiox]

Political are we?

@Hufsa have you considered building a wall to keep the algae out? 😂🤐

 

[Happi]

@Hufsa thanks for the updates. can you post some pictures of the plants that are under the water? Frogbit appear as it might be lacking Nitrogen at this point but i cannot confirm this 100% unless we look at other plants as well.

 

[Hufsa]

can you post some pictures of the plants that are under the water?

Can do, ill try to get something up within a few days The Tonina among others has been displaying very clear yellowing of older leaves, but I haven't read into it too much on account of overall tank issues.
Should also get a tank shot posted as I can hear @plantnoobdude steaming over there 😆

Frogbit appear as it might be lacking Nitrogen at this point but i cannot confirm this 100% unless we look at other plants as well.

Nice to know my theory doesn't seem entirely far fetched 😁

Ill grab a new NO3 test result too, fresh reagents just to see if the reading falls into line with the other ones.
I need to check the dates on it, but im pretty sure the current one has been opened for too long. From the log i have made so far it seems that some of the tests are only accurate for ~6 months after opening in my storage conditions. Expiration date is only for unopened reagents, opening them starts a new timer and this is what im tracking.

Even if the NO3 test still reads a certain amount, I'm not gonna change course based on it. Theres too many other indications, enough to warrant trying a general increase of macros to see.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Ill grab a new NO3 test result too, fresh reagents just to see if the reading falls into line with the other ones.

Just add a <"bit more fertiliser"> and see if it gets greener. If it was a sub-optimal levels of fixed nitrogen you should get a pretty instant greening. It is as least as sensitive as the nitrate (NO3-) test. <"Dying Forgbit and Algae">

cheers Darrel

 

[Hufsa]

Just add a <"bit more fertiliser"> and see if it gets greener. If it was a sub-optimal levels of fixed nitrogen you should get a pretty instant greening. It is as least as sensitive as the nitrate (NO3-) test. <"Dying Forgbit and Algae">

Have you seen the curling before Darrel, aside from previously in my journal?
I think it might not necessarily be related to the paleness, I have had plants doing strange curling for quite some time now, maybe as long as a couple of years back even.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Have you seen the curling before Darrel, aside from previously in my journal?

I'm pretty sure I have, but I can't remember the context (and I can't find it anywhere).

edit: Got it it was this one <"Micronutrient toxicity.. or deficiency.. ? Pls help."> .

and this was what happened.

Regarding the duckweed index: Massive massive help. If any of u have any doubts whether u have issues either due to co2 or nutrient def.. this is a life saver. the reason for my frogbits to die off earlier was not due to high surface flow. It was insufficient phosphate. Looks like phosphate at EI recommended dosage isnt sufficient in my tank. I almost dose 10 ppm per week. And you can see those results in the pics attached here.

I was wondering about nitrogen (N), and then @Happi chipped in, which has emboldened me to go down that route.

This time it almost seems like the oldest leaves are the ones struggling the most. The new leaves are still coming in a little light, but this feels secondary to the increasing decay rate of old leaves..............I'm thinking about Liebig's barrel.. If my plants got more Manganese, which they appear to previously have been lacking, another nutrient/factor takes its place as the most limiting. Something will be in the shortest supply at all times.

I'm sure that is right. <"Nut nutritional summary | Yara UK">.

I'd be looking at N : P : K & Mg but I don't know which one(s) is (are) the lowest stave(s).

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

and also eat the rich

My kids say that one of their earliest memories was when I suggested that Lord Eric Pickles would be <"self-basting on the BBQ"> and they weren't sure whether I was serious or not (I wasn't, I bet he would taste horrible).

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

@Hufsa , you've got soft sand similar to that of mine. Tell me, have you ever noticed upper layer (apx. 5mm) like glued together, forming a crust? It's not strong, quite fragile, yet still discernible when gently manipulating, par example planting tissue culture plantlets.
Sand in my tanks forms such a crust, and I suppose it's glued by microbial biofilms. Of course, I may be wrong.

 

[Hufsa]

@Hufsa , you've got soft sand similar to that of mine. Tell me, have you ever noticed upper layer (apx. 5mm) like glued together, forming a crust? It's not strong, quite fragile, yet still discernible when gently manipulating, par example planting tissue culture plantlets.
Sand in my tanks forms such a crust, and I suppose it's glued by microbial biofilms. Of course, I may be wrong.

Thats really interesting
No I havent really gotten that in my tank..
What grain size is your sand, my brain suggests its 1-2mm, but I could be misremembering / mixing it with someone else?
Mine is currently 0.1-0.5mm, but previous years it has usually been closer to 0.3-0.7 range. Not that I think it has great significance in this case, just curious.
However I have always had some sort of sand sifting inhabitants in my tank(s).
Pangio species, Corydoras species, or burrowing snails, usually both or all three.
I dont think they would allow such a crust to form in peace, they would always have stirred and broken apart the upper layer of sand before any discernible crust could develop.
Now that im thinking about it, I wonder if I did see such a crust one time many years ago... 🤔
In a smaller temporary tank that had been left without inhabitants for a while. I can faintly imagine a slightly loose gel like layer that the top sand had become. Im not 100% sure of this memory though.

It sounds entirely plausible to me that it is a microbial biofilm like you suggest.
We get a biofilm on undisturbed glass, a biofilm on undisturbed plastic, and even a biofilm on slow growing undisturbed plants that dont get "cleaned" by critters.
Why wouldnt sand get biofilm.
I could theorize that the thickness of such a layer is the depth that particular substrate has, -that are suitable conditions to house this specific microbial community (I doubt its just "one" kind of microbe*).

Spoiler: *

*Biologists laugh at us because our view of microbes/algae(~life in general) tends to be incredibly simplistic.
For example, we lump all algae into incredibly coarse categories we call "black beard algae", staghorn algae, green spot algae, green thread algae, and so on. Even though there are numerous different species that fall into just one of these categories of ours, we insist on treating all of those species as if they were a completely homogenous group. We expect that what works to hinder one species of green thread algae, should also work on another species of green thread algae. What promotes one species of BBA will promote all species of BBA.
Unfortunately it doesnt actually seem to be that simple, and we dont really like to think about that because we already feel like our hobby is difficult enough as it is with all the moving parts and uncertainty, and any more difficulty would just be too much. So we cling to our simplification, even if it means we could be missing out on insights that might make things easier for us.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk
And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming

The sand crust sounds a bit like the layer that forms on my front glass under the substrate. It is also a loose gel like consistency. They are similar in some ways but different in others.
The one I get on the front glass is dark in color and appears to be photosynthetic.
Why would I think that? Well, it only grows where there is a certain amount of light.
Even when all the other conditions appear to be the same (substrate same, depth same, glass access same), it only occurs where the tank gets a certain amount of ambient light.
Supporting this, the layer is also quite thin (maybe a milimeter), and very consistently this thin. It wouldnt be very cool to be a photosynthetic microbe and not have any access to light because all your buddies are in front of you. So the layer self regulates around light access.

I wonder if your layer is not photosynthetic, based on that you describe it to be thicker. But all of this is just speculation of course. You dont describe any color, which makes me suspect its clear(ish)?
I think your tank setup might be slightly rare, in that most people have more livestock. Especially tanks with sand, they usually have sand because it was required for one of the inhabitants.
And that/those inhabitants would keep the crust from becoming noticed by humans. It might explain why it hasnt been talked about much?

Since im already speculating wildly, heres a fun one;
Do we think Maq's "crust" could influence the recycling and uptake of nutrients in the substrate, if his sand has a "lid" and mine doesnt?
Do you guys reckon it could make our substrates behave/perform differently, even slightly?

 

[_Maq_]

Since im already speculating wildly, heres a fun one;
Do we think Maq's "crust" could influence the recycling and uptake of nutrients in the substrate, if his sand has a "lid" and mine doesnt?
Do you guys reckon it could make our substrates behave/perform differently, even slightly?

My sand is size 0.6 to 1.2 mm. I think your Corydoras & burrowing snails make the difference. I've got only ramshorns.
The crust seems to be colorless, possibly a hint of brownish. Yes, I think it may influence the exchange of solutes between deeper strata of the substrate and the water column. However, I speculate that such a layer is not restricted to soft sand! It's just you can hardly notice it when the grains are bigger/heavier because the "glue" is not strong.
I'll keep on observing this phenomenon. For now, I can just add that whenever I replant any plants their roots are white, healthy, often long. However, when I disturb the crust, nearby Crypts often drop their leaves, yes, "Crypts disease". Perhaps some hydrogen sulfide is released; the Crypts can handle it in their roots, but react rapidly if it gets into the water column.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

....Tell me, have you ever noticed upper layer (apx. 5mm) like glued together, forming a crust? It's not strong, quite fragile, yet still discernible when gently manipulating...Sand in my tanks forms such a crust, and I suppose it's glued by microbial biofilms

It sounds entirely plausible to me that it is a microbial biofilm like you suggest.
We get a biofilm on undisturbed glass, a biofilm on undisturbed plastic, and even a biofilm on slow growing undisturbed plants that dont get "cleaned" by critters.
Why wouldnt sand get biofilm.

I think it will be a biofilm, as @Hufsa says they develop on <"all undisturbed surfaces">.

The one I get on the front glass is dark in color and appears to be photosynthetic.
Why would I think that? Well, it only grows where there is a certain amount of light.

Cyanobacteria? Pretty common in that situation.

However I have always had some sort of sand sifting inhabitants in my tank(s).Pangio species, Corydoras species, or burrowing snails, usually both or all three. I dont think they would allow such a crust to form in peace, they would always have stirred and broken apart the upper layer of sand before any discernible crust could develop.

Same for me, I always have Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS) (Melanoides tuberculata), even when <"I don't have any sand sifting fish">. What does happen over time is that all the larger grains move to the top via <"granular convection">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hufsa]

Cyanobacteria? Pretty common in that situation.

I think we ruled that out, because the snails and shrimp love it. They pounce on it as soon as I pull it up from the glass. Isnt it possible that there are a few types of microbe thing that would like to grow this way and taste good? Or even calling myself out on my own simplification, is there a type of cyanobacteria that is tasty? 🤷‍♀️

Same for me, I always have Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS) (Melanoides tuberculata), even when <"I don't have any sand sifting fish">.

They're great arent they 🥰 I keep trying to convince people (on other sites) they're not pests, but people are so fearful of losing control of "their tank", and usually refuse to critically assess their own feeding amounts
"Oh gee, you sure have a lot of sand snails.. What is that, about 50% substrate and 50% snails?
..What do you reckon all of these hungry little mouths survive on?"
Maybe they eat nothing and just explode in population because they are evil

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think we ruled that out, because the snails and shrimp love it. They pounce on it as soon as I pull it up from the glass. Isnt it possible that there are a few types of microbe thing that would like to grow this way and taste good? Or even calling myself out on my own simplification, is there a type of cyanobacteria that is tasty

I'm not sure, you would need to put some under a microscope. You can use colour, if it is a "teal" in colour? They are cyanobacteria, if its "grass green"? Green Algae. Smell would be another option, distinctly earthy? Cyanobacteria.

They're great arent they 🥰 I keep trying to convince people (on other sites) they're not pests, but people are so fearful of losing control of "their tank", and usually refuse to critically assess their own feeding amounts
"Oh gee, you sure have a lot of sand snails.. What is that, about 50% substrate and 50% snails?
..What do you reckon all of these hungry little mouths survive on?"

I <"always have them"> (I have a lot of different tank janitors), but they are definitely in my top three.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hufsa]

I'm not sure, you would need to put some under a microscope. You can use colour, if it is a "teal" in colour? They are cyanobacteria, if its "grass green"? Green Algae. Smell would be another option, distinctly earthy? Cyanobacteria.

I have teal in a few spots on the glass under the substrate, what I would call really typical cyanobacteria color. It is very different in texture to the stuff that makes up the majority, and a totally different color. The other stuff is blackish brown and slides off the glass very easily. The cyanobacteria spots stay on the glass much harder.
Maybe I have two species of cyanobacteria 😊
I think both of them have the smell. Its that kind of "too much earthy" in a not-so-pleasant-way smell. Not like healthy filter sponge (which you all know I like to snort sniff)

 

[Hufsa]

I ran out of brain juice But I did sorta promise some plant pictures today so here they are
(not cropped and out of focus, but I resized most of em at least, except for the ones I know @Happi will want to zoom in on 😘 )




Blood Red unhappy, a lot of the tops stunted all of a sudden.

Conspicuous spots on the lower leaves, and a ton of mostly unsuccessful sideshoots.


Weird mix between "growing much better" and "horribly twisted".
On some of the stems you can see a timeline of the days where the plant "took off" and then hit the wall real hard;

Big leaves, plant "hits the wall", top crumples, sends out a ton of sideshoots.

I tidied up the struggling trio, leaving mostly the tops that looked ~better.

Look at all those roots. What are these plants searching for? Seem desperate


"Ivory Allure" seems happier with more Mn. Actually started growing again. It was previously melting from the bottom because the growth had stalled for too long. Seems on its way back.


Blyxa still upset.



More index. Its still showing up greener in pictures. The frogbit is quite sad.
The oldest roots are even turning to mush and falling off


Buces are growing stunted new leaves and continues to melt on semi new. Lots of roots dying off. Tonina has put out a ton of roots in the water column, much more than it usually does.
Everything seems very wrong.

I dumped a good bunch of front load fert in, checked TDS before and after, 187 and 206.
Will see if it has dropped any tomorrow. That might indicate that something has been taken up.
Hope my preciouses feel better soon

 

[Hufsa]

Another couple of bits for the "What the heck is going on" puzzle
Buce leaves coming out severely twisted and with pink... veins? lesions?




@_Maq_ have you ever seen something that looks like this?
Also hope to hear from Happi when he has time, family life comes first, always.

@John q (+anyone else) I have definitely considered CO2 (twisted new growth and poor old growth fits), but I cant get it to fit with the frogbit struggling so much, all the plants desperately putting out water column roots and the buce struggling to this extreme degree. Also I improved flow, the stemplants seemed to like it, and then they just cr*pped out, seemingly ran out of something even though the flow is still the same improvement..


Thinking about implementing some serious changes this weekend. I think I will be able to remake some ferts if this is needed. I have some bad days again health wise, but I think the tank really needs help, I will try my best.
Usually I want to do only one thing at a time, so I can get the most learning per kilo of struggle. So the boat is heading for the ice berg, and im moving the ship's wheel one degree at a time, to see what happens per degree. But the iceberg is getting really dang close and I think I have to turn a bit harder and accept that I might not know exactly what degree of turning made the difference.
Ive never had Buce struggle this much and I cant lose them ☹️☹️☹️

More nitrates and phosphate is probably coming. Maybe less K, because why not, its in fashion now.
Are the micros now too high?
The shrimp haven't produced offspring in months, and they continue dying at an alarming pace. I found three dead adults last night.. 😣

Please help me peeps, im pretty lost at the moment

 

[John q]

I have definitely considered CO2 (twisted new growth and poor old growth fits), but I cant get it to fit with the frogbit struggling so much

Haha, my names Jon, not Clive 😀

I'll hold my hand up and say not all the issues in your tank are C02 related, the frogbit makes that clear. I do still think ensuring everything is on point with the gas will help solve a lot of the issues, but I think you've already addressed, or are addressing this.

As to what else is at fault... I'll be honest and tried re reading much of this thread a few months ago and couldn't find anything definitive then.

Sure you'll solve the puzzle @Hufsa

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Its that kind of "too much earthy" in a not-so-pleasant-way smell

That is usually an indicator of cyanobacteria. <"Actinomycetes"> have a similar smell.

I can't help with what isn't quite right, but your BBA is quite impressive.

Not quite in <"Gorilla Fake fur"> territory, but close. It looks very similar to the "plant" that was in the <"Piranha tank at RBG Kew"> - <"Piranha III: the algal hunter">.

cheers Darrel