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CPD with ulcer

MirandaB

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I kept cpd’s in the past and had similar issues. I believe the stock available now is pretty inbred and generally of really poor quality. All other fish I kept with them were fine but I lost cpd’s one by one to stuff like wasting away, crooked spines, ulcers. I have a feeling a lot of them in the trade have fish tb or something similar.

You find the same with dwarf gouramis, neon tetras, guppy’s etc. A lot of the stock these days is of terrible quality.

Cheers
Have to agree with @Conort2,cpds are of very poor quality these days and I won't keep them anymore because of this.
 

xZaiox

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You find the same with dwarf gouramis
@Conort2 - I find this comment very interesting. The fish in my main tank are nice and healthy (I do strict quarantine procedures and am very diligent with parasites), yet despite this, I don't ever seem to be able to keep dwarf gouramis alive. I have a soft spot for the blue dwarf gourami with red stripes, and so I've purchased multiple of them over the years. They always end up dying to symptoms that seem to be either the infamous iridovirus or fish TB.

I've stopped buying them because I can't keep them alive, yet have success with pretty much any other fish. Go figure...
 

Conort2

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I have a soft spot for the blue dwarf gourami with red stripes, and so I've purchased multiple of them over the years. They always end up dying to symptoms that seem to be either the infamous iridovirus or fish TB.
It’s almost a given they’ll have iridovirus, most people do the same as you and give up in the end.

Honey or thick lip gourami are about the closest you can get to a dwarf gourami without the iridovirus problem.

Cheers
 

KirstyF

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I kept cpd’s in the past and had similar issues. I believe the stock available now is pretty inbred and generally of really poor quality. All other fish I kept with them were fine but I lost cpd’s one by one to stuff like wasting away, crooked spines, ulcers. I have a feeling a lot of them in the trade have fish tb or something similar.

You find the same with dwarf gouramis, neon tetras, guppy’s etc. A lot of the stock these days is of terrible quality.

Cheers

Well, an inherent weakness or genetic issue would be nasty but at least could be contained to this species and I’m just hoping it’s not something horribly contagious. It’s such a shame because they are lovely little fish, however, I won’t be replacing those that I’ve lost. 🙁
 

KirstyF

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Been a bit quiet on this thread but not for good reason unfortunately.

Things seemed to be going ok for a good few weeks after the last thread and then I lost another CPD. A few weeks later, a gold cloud mountain minnow developed an ulcer. Just recently, I had another CPD, this time with an Ulcer and a bent spine, and I noticed that some of the Gold Clouds seemed to be losing weight.

So…..primary and certainly most frequent symptom has been Ulcers. The apparent loss of weight is, as far as I can tell, exclusive to the GCMM (so far) and these fish still seem to be actively eating.

When the latest CPD, with both Ulcer and bent spine showed up, I spent yet another evening on-line and decided it was time to test.

I think @shangman ‘s thread probably raised my awareness too so, thank you for sharing hon.

Results today have confirmed TB.

I’m sharing as much as anything to highlight what I’ve seen and experienced and perhaps to help anyone else try to recognise the symptoms.

It’s tough because often what you see can be caused by a multitude of other things and fish TB is supposed to be a rare thing….certainly not a conclusion that anyone should jump to but……on and off, unexplained deaths, without an immediately obvious cause and with multiple symptoms, could be an alarm bell.

The test cost me £160 and it won’t save any of my fish, but it will certainly stop me putting more in the tank and condemning them to the same fate. That alone, I feel is worth it.

I don’t want to come across as alarmist, or worry people; there are so many other things that can make fish poorly but maybe this info can at least add to our pool of knowledge.
 

xZaiox

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Echoing Miranda here @KirstyF - really sorry to hear that. When I hear of frequently occurring ulcers I usually think of either flukes or fish TB, but since you've had the test done you've at least confirmed the fish TB.

Diana Walstad reported very good things of preventing mycobacterium infections from spreading using a UV steriliser - I don't know if that's something you'd be happy spending the cash on, but it's a potential option? I have one running in my main tank for this very reason. It won't treat an active infection, but appears to limit the spread. Do note that if you go this route, they generally require a limited water flow because the light needs to come in-contact with the pathogens for long enough. For this reason, I have mine running off a small underpowered secondary filter.
 

Midwife

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Echoing Miranda here @KirstyF - really sorry to hear that. When I hear of frequently occurring ulcers I usually think of either flukes or fish TB, but since you've had the test done you've at least confirmed the fish TB.

Diana Walstad reported very good things of preventing mycobacterium infections from spreading using a UV steriliser - I don't know if that's something you'd be happy spending the cash on, but it's a potential option? I have one running in my main tank for this very reason. It won't treat an active infection, but appears to limit the spread. Do note that if you go this route, they generally require a limited water flow because the light needs to come in-contact with the pathogens for long enough. For this reason, I have mine running off a small underpowered secondary filter.
UV steriliser won't work. The infection lives within the fish where the uv light cannot penatrate.
 

shangman

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I’m really sorry to hear that :( I had a friend on Instagram go through the same thing last week too. Idk if this is a newer thing making a wave, or if it was rarely reported before and still happened just as frequently but it sucks that we’re experiencing it either way. Very disheartening and I send you big love ❤️❤️❤️

Make sure to protect yourself with some proper gloves no matter what you do with it, my friend caught it cleaning out an old tank (didn’t even realise it had tb at the time ), nicked under their nail and then experienced a tear of hell and heavy antibiotics. Now it’s confirmed, be extra careful.

I wonder if we can work out a quarantine length to avoid spreading this into our community tanks - when did you last add fish? I’m still not sure if a longer quarantine would stop main tanks from catching it, but it would be worth it to gather info and see in case. For me it was 6 weeks after adding new fish that fish started to show obvious symptoms, and it was the newest fish that showed symptoms first for me. I don’t think that’s always the case though!
 

xZaiox

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KirstyF

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I’m really sorry to hear that :( I had a friend on Instagram go through the same thing last week too. Idk if this is a newer thing making a wave, or if it was rarely reported before and still happened just as frequently but it sucks that we’re experiencing it either way. Very disheartening and I send you big love ❤️❤️❤️

Make sure to protect yourself with some proper gloves no matter what you do with it, my friend caught it cleaning out an old tank (didn’t even realise it had tb at the time ), nicked under their nail and then experienced a tear of hell and heavy antibiotics. Now it’s confirmed, be extra careful.

I wonder if we can work out a quarantine length to avoid spreading this into our community tanks - when did you last add fish? I’m still not sure if a longer quarantine would stop main tanks from catching it, but it would be worth it to gather info and see in case. For me it was 6 weeks after adding new fish that fish started to show obvious symptoms, and it was the newest fish that showed symptoms first for me. I don’t think that’s always the case though!

Thanks hon and I have super long gloves on the way. 😊

I’ve just gone through all my info and between the last fish added and the first confirmed ulcer was 11weeks.

However:

I can’t guarantee that was the first actual loss. With the tank being huge and well planted and the fish being tiny and numerous, earlier unnoticed losses are possible. I would certainly say that I have more losses in the CPD population than I can account for and these have been undoubtedly the worst affected, but these were also one of the earlier fish in the tank. If it came from them, you would think other losses may have shown up earlier! The CPD’s have been in since 15th Jan and first known loss was 24th May.

I have also added both shrimp and snails after the last fish, and as the specific bacteria type has not been identified, it could still have come in with these.

Interestingly I have seen no signs of illness in the very last batch of fish added (5th March) and numbers are at least close to the original count. It’s almost impossible to confirm for sure. They don’t hang around in a single group and there are lots of places to hide.

The very first fish in the tank were my cardinals however, who because they shoal, can in fact be counted, and I don’t appear to have lost a single one!

I also still have a full contingent of peacock goby and SAE’s who were also earlier additions.

I think there may be an element of susceptibility that may skew things, but a two to three week quarantine is most certainly not going to cover it. 6-8wks maybe!?
 

MirandaB

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I think there may be an element of susceptibility that may skew things, but a two to three week quarantine is most certainly not going to cover it. 6-8wks maybe!?
It's not going to be something you can really quarantine for as it can take months to show up and then some fish will just carry it and never show any outward symptoms.
Stress is definitely a major factor in my opinion (that also goes for a lot of other fish diseases too) lowering the fishes immune capabilities and making them more likely to succumb.
I stopped keeping cpds a few years ago as I think it's rife among those,I can't remember the last time I saw a batch for sale in an lfs which I considered to be healthy and I tend to avoid buying fish that have been bred in certain areas of Europe such as the Czech Republic where I know studies have shown Myco has a high prevalence.
Would love someone over here to conduct a study for Mycobacterium in the aquarium trade but I suspect that's low on funding priorities so will likely never happen.
It's a bullet anyone will be lucky to dodge really,qt or not,because most lfs have shared sump systems and will have had fish come in with it at some point.
 

KirstyF

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As I said above -

You can read about Diana Walstad's experience here, it seems like promising stuff - https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/mb__2017c.pdf

Really interesting article @xZaiox that certainly prompts some questions.

Just curious, can I assume you are running your UV 24/7, without any undesirable impact and can I ask how long you’ve been running for?

My take is:
UV will obviously kill beneficial bacteria that is ‘screened’ as well as the nasties, but most BB is not free floating so colony impact would be minimal.

I guess you could argue the same for the Mico bacteria but, as it replicates so slowly by comparison, it would seem logical that the process could at least swing things in the BB’s favour to some extent.

Her experience certainly seems to indicate that the use of UV, slowed/reduced mortality rates, though of course, a single experience does not a conclusion make!

The article also links to @MirandaB ‘s comment regarding stress, where particular situations may be risk points (introduction of new fish) and or underlying weakness increases susceptibility.

So, buying fish from reputable sources, always a good idea but also

would a decent period of quarantine allow fish who may have been shipped, dumped in an LFS tank and then raked back out and shipped to you, the opportunity to settle better into new water parameters, feeding routines etc, in a single group, prior to being added to a community tank for example….or is the stress inevitable.

Should we consider, to minimise stress, minimal introductions over longer periods rather than frequent new introductions as is often the case when stocking new tanks.

Should we bolster fish with treatments, as a matter of course, to protect them when they arrive with us so they are less likely to be attacked by other illness that may weaken them. If so, what? (Could be contentious)

Should we consider UV to minimise bacterial load (in an established tank) so that Mico bacteria are less able to ‘take hold’

If a fish is already chronically infected with MB, the chance of saving it is slim but maybe the spread of the disease is not entirely inevitable and/or can be slowed down in an already infected tank. If UV can assist with this, then maybe it’s paid for itself already!

Just my thoughts!
 

xZaiox

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Just curious, can I assume you are running your UV 24/7, without any undesirable impact and can I ask how long you’ve been running for?
Yeah, I run my UV 24/7, I haven't noticed any negative impacts whatsoever. I've been running it for probably at least 3-4 months now.
My take is:
UV will obviously kill beneficial bacteria that is ‘screened’ as well as the nasties, but most BB is not free floating so colony impact would be minimal.
Yes to the bit I quoted in bold - your beneficial bacteria will be safe as they will be colonized in rich biofilms all over your tank, filter, plants and substrate.
I guess you could argue the same for the Mico bacteria but, as it replicates so slowly by comparison, it would seem logical that the process could at least swing things in the BB’s favour to some extent.
Other bacteria will be fighting for the same space as the mycobacterium, which seems to be Diana's understanding of why clean tanks are more susceptible to it. I would also imagine that bacteria that isn't free-floating will be much less likely to become pathogenic. Sure, if your fish are scratching themselves on rocks due to a parasitic infection, then they may come into contact with whatever bacteria is on the impact site, but as long as the fish are just swimming, then any bacteria will have to get to the fish first, which I guess is where the UV steriliser comes in.
Her experience certainly seems to indicate that the use of UV, slowed/reduced mortality rates, though of course, a single experience does not a conclusion make!
Yes, I do also agree with this, everything must be taken with a grain of salt. So far the fish in my main tank seem nice and healthy, I haven't had any issues for a long time now.
would a decent period of quarantine allow fish who may have been shipped, dumped in an LFS tank and then raked back out and shipped to you, the opportunity to settle better into new water parameters, feeding routines etc, in a single group, prior to being added to a community tank for example….or is the stress inevitable.
Stress is inevitable IMO. We're giant creatures and the fish have no clue what's going on. I would imagine being in a quarantine tank with barely any cover will itself be stressful. I put half-cut PVC pipes in my quarantine tank so they can hide, but still, I'm sure the ones in my main tank that's densely planted will feel more secure.
Should we bolster fish with treatments, as a matter of course, to protect them when they arrive with us so they are less likely to be attacked by other illness that may weaken them. If so, what? (Could be contentious)
I pre-medicate my quarantined fish with praziquantel, levamisole and metronidazole. This targets hexamita, capillaria, camallanus, spironucelus, flukes & gill flukes, tapeworms etc. I don't medicate for ich unless I see it (and it will usually show up by the end of the quarantine process if the fish are carrying it), and I don't medicate for bacterial or fungal infections unless I see them. I chose the medications I use because they're all relatively mild (especially metronidazole and praziquantel), and in my experience parasites seem to be one of the main causes of health issues (assuming water quality is good).

A lot of aquarium fish are either wild-caught, or kept in tanks with wild-caught specimens. Ever since I started this antiparasitic protocol, my death rates have dramatically decreased. Of course, this is just what works for me, your mileage may very.
If a fish is already chronically infected with MB, the chance of saving it is slim but maybe the spread of the disease is not entirely inevitable and/or can be slowed down in an already infected tank. If UV can assist with this, then maybe it’s paid for itself already!
This is my line of thinking.
 
Last edited:

shangman

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So, buying fish from reputable sources, always a good idea but also

would a decent period of quarantine allow fish who may have been shipped, dumped in an LFS tank and then raked back out and shipped to you, the opportunity to settle better into new water parameters, feeding routines etc, in a single group, prior to being added to a community tank for example….or is the stress inevitable.

Should we consider, to minimise stress, minimal introductions over longer periods rather than frequent new introductions as is often the case when stocking new tanks.

Should we bolster fish with treatments, as a matter of course, to protect them when they arrive with us so they are less likely to be attacked by other illness that may weaken them. If so, what? (Could be contentious)

Should we consider UV to minimise bacterial load (in an established tank) so that Mico bacteria are less able to ‘take hold’
This is exactly what I'll be doing in the future. Slowly adding new fish (and small fish in good groups), quarantining each species in a nice planted tank for 2+ months and treating for all treatable problems before they go in the main tank. Long but worth it. Will have UV in there from the start, minimising any myco that does appear, and other diseases too! Personally I also will avoid CO2 in my big community tank to avoid extra stress too.

Thanks hon and I have super long gloves on the way. 😊

I’ve just gone through all my info and between the last fish added and the first confirmed ulcer was 11weeks.

However:

I can’t guarantee that was the first actual loss. With the tank being huge and well planted and the fish being tiny and numerous, earlier unnoticed losses are possible. I would certainly say that I have more losses in the CPD population than I can account for and these have been undoubtedly the worst affected, but these were also one of the earlier fish in the tank. If it came from them, you would think other losses may have shown up earlier! The CPD’s have been in since 15th Jan and first known loss was 24th May.

I have also added both shrimp and snails after the last fish, and as the specific bacteria type has not been identified, it could still have come in with these.

Interestingly I have seen no signs of illness in the very last batch of fish added (5th March) and numbers are at least close to the original count. It’s almost impossible to confirm for sure. They don’t hang around in a single group and there are lots of places to hide.

The very first fish in the tank were my cardinals however, who because they shoal, can in fact be counted, and I don’t appear to have lost a single one!

I also still have a full contingent of peacock goby and SAE’s who were also earlier additions.

I think there may be an element of susceptibility that may skew things, but a two to three week quarantine is most certainly not going to cover it. 6-8wks maybe!?
Ahh it is similar to my tank, just impossible to tell! There have been random deaths every now and again before, so can never say where we got it from or how long it was in there. Very frustrating! I honestly don't know which shops to go to and which to avoid tbh. I'm gonna go with 8 weeks quarantine I think, and pray lol.

When researching I did find that some fish are more succeptable than others, like your danios, my pencils were toast. I think zebra danios are the classic ones to go down first, and apparently bettas and other gouramis often too.

Have you decided yet if you going to try UV and seeing if the rest of your fish can get through this, or will you start over?
 

KirstyF

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This is exactly what I'll be doing in the future. Slowly adding new fish (and small fish in good groups), quarantining each species in a nice planted tank for 2+ months and treating for all treatable problems before they go in the main tank. Long but worth it. Will have UV in there from the start, minimising any myco that does appear, and other diseases too! Personally I also will avoid CO2 in my big community tank to avoid extra stress too.


Ahh it is similar to my tank, just impossible to tell! There have been random deaths every now and again before, so can never say where we got it from or how long it was in there. Very frustrating! I honestly don't know which shops to go to and which to avoid tbh. I'm gonna go with 8 weeks quarantine I think, and pray lol.

When researching I did find that some fish are more succeptable than others, like your danios, my pencils were toast. I think zebra danios are the classic ones to go down first, and apparently bettas and other gouramis often too.

Have you decided yet if you going to try UV and seeing if the rest of your fish can get through this, or will you start over?

I’m searching for a good UV solution now….anything to up the odds…..and am currently planning to see the population out.

I will euthanise at the first sign of symptoms, as I don’t want the fish to suffer, but with over 100 fish in the tank still, and most of them still appearing to be fully fit at this stage, a full cull doesn’t feel right. I’m trying to be conscious of the fact that I have to do what is best for them and not for me, just because I’m too pussy to do what needs doing…..and now I’ve had the confirmation, I will likely euthanise those few suffering with weight loss this weekend. They are very unlikely to recover. (No one has ulcers right now)

I’m hoping to find the right balance and that, with this number of fish, the odds will give me some survivors. Unfortunately we all know the mortality rate is pretty awful.

I also have shrimp and it is not yet clear whether the type of MB I have is one they can suffer from or not, but obviously they can’t move to an alternate tank due to contamination.

This is up for review of course. If things take a turn for the worse, then welfare is paramount, and there could come a time where early euthanasia is a better option.

Either way, I plan to keep the tank as is for a good long while yet, even if it’s ultimately plant only.

It seems kind of tragic to possibly end up with a 7ft tank with no fish in it but, right now, that feels less tragic than having to start over and trash my beautiful indoor garden as well. Not to mention that the cost of replacing everything in a tank this size is……prohibitive!

I so hope some of them make it! 🤞
 

shangman

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I’m searching for a good UV solution now….anything to up the odds…..and am currently planning to see the population out.

I will euthanise at the first sign of symptoms, as I don’t want the fish to suffer, but with over 100 fish in the tank still, and most of them still appearing to be fully fit at this stage, a full cull doesn’t feel right. I’m trying to be conscious of the fact that I have to do what is best for them and not for me, just because I’m too pussy to do what needs doing…..and now I’ve had the confirmation, I will likely euthanise those few suffering with weight loss this weekend. They are very unlikely to recover. (No one has ulcers right now)

I’m hoping to find the right balance and that, with this number of fish, the odds will give me some survivors. Unfortunately we all know the mortality rate is pretty awful.

I also have shrimp and it is not yet clear whether the type of MB I have is one they can suffer from or not, but obviously they can’t move to an alternate tank due to contamination.

This is up for review of course. If things take a turn for the worse, then welfare is paramount, and there could come a time where early euthanasia is a better option.

Either way, I plan to keep the tank as is for a good long while yet, even if it’s ultimately plant only.

It seems kind of tragic to possibly end up with a 7ft tank with no fish in it but, right now, that feels less tragic than having to start over and trash my beautiful indoor garden as well. Not to mention that the cost of replacing everything in a tank this size is……prohibitive!

I so hope some of them make it! 🤞
I don't think it's weakness to stick it out and see if you can save the rest of the fish :) If more of my fish were still looking healthy I would've done the same. I never noticed any shrimp having problems with the TB.

Euthanising the anorexic fish is the best thing to do, that was one of the most common symptoms I found. It's important partly became the disease spreads to new fish when an infected one dies and the rest eat it - partly why it's called fish zombie disease :( So better to whip them out now for their sake and the rest.

For UV I recommend a TMC Vecton, they're big powerful bastards. When I researched it it basically said get the most powerful one you can, underpoweed UV won't do anything. I really hope it works well for you like it did for Walstad, she eventually added new fish with no problems after a few months with UV, it would be great to know if that's repeatable!
 

KirstyF

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For UV I recommend a TMC Vecton, they're big powerful bastards. When I researched it it basically said get the most powerful one you can, underpoweed UV won't do anything. I really hope it works well for you like it did for Walstad, she eventually added new fish with no problems after a few months with UV, it would be great to know if that's repeatable!

Nice shout! Just taken a look at these and they look pretty good. The 600 says max 1900lt ph and my biomaster 850’s are rated at 1500 (and we all know you never really get that) so I reckon I could just plumb straight in without a bypass and still get enough dwell time?

It would be much easier than a separate line. Even with the size of my cabinet, there’s a lot going on under there already! I’ll need to do some jiggery pokery to mount it; It’s huge!!!

What do you reckon folks?
 
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