Curled and blackened leaves

[JoshP12]

Hi Josh. Its been a long time since I posted here and in the meantime I thought I would create a shallow tank scape and re-create the other tank. Interestingly I am starting to get the same issues as above, but not as pronounced. The new tank is 4.5 weeks old and grown from tissue cultures. The tech is as follows:
1) A canister filter with good flow around the central "mountain" portion. (Fluval 307 full of sachem matrix).
2) Tank is a 60x30x18
3) Ferts is EI from day one as calculated on Rotala butterfly (KNO3,KH2PO4,MgSO4) + Plantex trace mix.
4) Pressurised CO2
5) Zetlight Lancia 2 (RGB - 1900 lumen at full strength and 24 watt). CO2 on at 11:30 and off at 21:30; lights on at 13:30 (40% intensity); 14:30 to 21:30 (70% intensity); 21:30 to 22:30 (again 40% intensity); then off. The light is 33cm from the substrate as mounted on the wooden stand.
I planted rotala's to help with nutrient uptake, and have a lot of Monte Carlo which is quite yellow green but maybe its the light as this light is fully adjustable and I might not have the right settings there.

As before I am really struggling to dial in the CO2 (1 bubble a second now) and the DC goes yellow at 19:30 already. I know I should dial down the bubble rate, but would my plants suffer if the DC is in the yellow? I can see that this may be the case as the water is more acidic, but I just don't have the experience in this regard. I notice the Monte Carlo is developing slight brown edges on new growth and I have some green spot algae on the dragon rock and glass. Given that I had similar problems in the other tank this is surely also related to my skills at getting the CO2 balance right.

Any thoughts? See the photos attached. Thank you again.

I was wondering how this was going!

Recently, I had an issue with my plants and adding more GH booster helped. This might be an idea. Instead of my previously suggested GH, maybe go for 1 more scoop? Ideally, a floating plant would help rule out CO2 and if it was yellow, then we could try to troubleshoot.

The acidic piece is an important one - and I am not sure - but I can look into it. Do you have a relative pH for us? Maybe the same test of your water before water change and after CO2 injection?

In terms of if the plants would suffer with more CO2 (i.e. a yellower DC), I would say no - just from what I have read about people and plant-only tanks - I haven't tried it myself ... though I am setting one up to try it.

I like the rock coming out!!!

Josh

 

[kschyff]

Hi Josh. Thank you for the advice. Let me try adding some more GH booster. I do however notice that my TDS counter is around 230-250 with just the one scoop. Is it ok if this then goes even higher? The floating plant issue I have solved by pushing a tripartite mini tissue culture plant in a crevice at the surface of the water so it basically has all the roots and stems in the water but I see the leaves are nicely arranged at the top and thus floating there. These floating leaves look ok to me, but the stems in the water are also yellow. As for the pH I would have to get a tester or test kit, which I think is now long overdue so I will order that. Lastly, thanks for the compliment as this is technically my third tank and I really planned it for a couple of months. Lots of careful glueing to get all the caves and crevices deep enough so I could get substrate in there above the waterline. The plants above water a looking lovely and are thriving. Interestingly, all the crypts and pinnatifida are doing very well submerged. These plants have absolutely no algae on them, which is great. The rotala are also unaffected. Just the carpet plants. Forgot the mention that I also have some gloss and echodorus tennelus amongst the Monte Carlo and they also look brown and yellow. I seem to have bad luck with carpet plants!

For now I will order the pH test and up the GH. Will get back to you soon.

 

[kschyff]

I also just want to post a picture of this GH powder I am using as I am wondering if this is even the right type as it does nothing to buffer the water (KH).

 

[kschyff]

while I am waiting for the pH pens and tests etc. I did a few 90% water changes on Sunday and removed all the MC which was dying all over the tank. I only dosed the macros and then remineralised. Now I notice the TDS count is around 200. How much should one read into this reading? I notice Green Aqua uses it as a means to check on mineralisation.

 

[JoshP12]

while I am waiting for the pH pens and tests etc. I did a few 90% water changes on Sunday and removed all the MC which was dying all over the tank.

You have reset your water parameters back to tap/RO/remineralized.

I only dosed the macros and then remineralised. Now I notice the TDS count is around 200. How much should one read into this reading? I notice Green Aqua uses it as a means to check on mineralisation.

Don't read into it to much.

The TDS reading will read "all the stuff".

A quick example:
1) Well water a friends house reads TDS 300 ppm ... it is all KH and GH
2) My tank has a TDS of 300 ppm ... mine is all additives from tap water/ferts and minimal KH/GH (in comparison)

If anything, that 200 gives you a barometer for your water. If you have success, then you keep this barometer in your mind for your own use.

The 120 refers to their remineralization. They use Green Aqua GH/KH boost when using RO water. I am not sure what their "ratios" are ... but that matters. If you "remineralize" with just calcium, you can easily hit 120 ... but you can't grow plants.

If you have KH, then just use GH. EI dosed tanks have notoriously higher TDS by the nature of EI (including the GH booster that is used in conjunction - whether it is at the discretion of hobbyist or added for "reassurance" with the principles of EI) --- ADA tanks have low TDS.

Hope that helps.

Josh

 

[kschyff]

Thanks for the help Josh.

 

[kschyff]

Hi Josh,
I have receive my Ph pen and JBL test kit. First, my tanks are not cycled yet for some reason as they are measuring 0.25 nitrite. This is strange and disappointing at the same time as my canister filters a crammed with Seachem matrix and I regurlarly put stability in (both over 5 weeks old). Anyway my inhabitants are happy. Let's do the 60f problem tank first:

NO3 = 22mg/l
NO2 = 25mg/l
GH = <4 (that's what the kit says)
KH = 0
pH = <6
CO2 = less than 15mg/l

This last reading is interesting as the drop checker is lime green and there are tiny bubbles all over the place. I am now suggesting that my KH pH ratio is the problem so I dosed potassium carbonate (KHCO3) to bring that KH up. Once dosed the KH went to 3 and GH to 6 (exactly as I measured on Rotala butterfly). The pH also jumped to 7.1. Anyway, I thought let me monitor pH at regular intervals and I noticed that by 18:00 the pH was 6,5 and by 21:00 (now) it is still at that point. Surely this is not correct? Strangely enough my 60p received some KHCO3 when I changed the water on Friday and its parameters were in the green. The pH on the 60p went down from 7.2 to 6.5 (21:00 reading). The KH on 60p is 6. These plants are doing a lot better with the APT complete fert as well by the way. I switched after changing the water on Friday. The MC in the 60f is now completely removed and I placed some crypts in there just to have something in the substrate for now. Will create a complete pH profile tomorrow now that the KH is known on both tanks.

PS: The 60p has some Seiru stones in it and the water hardness on this tank is way way up there (14+). I removed the biggest one and placed some older ones in there to get this down next time I change the water. Interesting hobby!

 

[JoshP12]

Hi Josh,
I have receive my Ph pen and JBL test kit. First, my tanks are not cycled yet for some reason as they are measuring 0.25 nitrite. ... Anyway my inhabitants are happy.

If the fish are happy, then I wouldn't worry about those readings.

Let's do the 60f problem tank first:

NO3 = 22mg/l
NO2 = 25mg/l
GH = <4 (that's what the kit says)
KH = 0
pH = <6
CO2 = less than 15mg/l

This last reading is interesting as the drop checker is lime green and there are tiny bubbles all over the place. I am now suggesting that my KH pH ratio is the problem so I dosed potassium carbonate (KHCO3) to bring that KH up. Once dosed the KH went to 3 and GH to 6 (exactly as I measured on Rotala butterfly). The pH also jumped to 7.1.

So, this will is expected. As you increase KH, the "lowest" pH at higher CO2 concentrations will go up too. These species (CO2 and carbonate) are in equilibrium with each other - in other words, they as you change one, some chemistry happens and then they "rebalance" out ... the issues is that we also have gas exchange at the surface "so this vacuum chemistry is not exactly applicable into our dynamic system" ... but it's good enough for an intuition.

Anyway, I thought let me monitor pH at regular intervals and I noticed that by 18:00 the pH was 6,5 and by 21:00 (now) it is still at that point. Surely this is not correct?

It does a make a bit of sense, if you increased the KH up that many points, then the "bottom" pH might be 6.5. In other words, we have equivalent CO2 concentrations it is just there the pH remains higher.

Strangely enough my 60p received some KHCO3 when I changed the water on Friday and its parameters were in the green. The pH on the 60p went down from 7.2 to 6.5 (21:00 reading). The KH on 60p is 6.

So you may have more CO2 in that tank. But we must watch the plants here. Because 30 ppm means nothing since a drop checkers measures how much CO2 got into that piece at that point in time, but if a mist hits a plant, then we have lots of CO2 concentrated on that tissue.

These plants are doing a lot better with the APT complete fert as well by the way. I switched after changing the water on Friday.

APT ferts are leaner in nitrogen than EI. It is very possible that the lower nitrogen reduced the overall demand of nutrients and resulted in "slower and healthier" growth. Not sure. What I think is a good line of attack is to just watch. If the plants are doing great with APT and everything seems nice, then leave it trim it enjoy it. THEN double your dose and see what happens (if you care to or switch to the APT line and enjoy the hobby).

The MC in the 60f is now completely removed and I placed some crypts in there just to have something in the substrate for now. Will create a complete pH profile tomorrow now that the KH is known on both tanks.

The KH/pH relationship is in a perfect world - to the best of my knowledge. There are so many dynamics in our system. In the past I went through monitoring pH levels etc etc and although very interesting - I would still suggest it - I have found more success with a minor increase, then watch. Then a minor increase, then watch.

PS: The 60p has some Seiru stones in it and the water hardness on this tank is way way up there (14+). I removed the biggest one and placed some older ones in there to get this down next time I change the water.

Those stones will react to the CO2 and buffer out with releasing carbonates.

Interesting hobby!

It is.

Note: if you increased KH, then just watch your ramp time with CO2 -- you may need more. In theory, you don't - but in practice, since we have gas exchange ("kind of setting CO2 level in water without injection"), the theory may not mesh well with practice.

 

[kschyff]

Thank you Josh. I'll things as is for now. You have helped me so much.

 

[JoshP12]

Thank you Josh. I'll things as is for now. You have helped me so much.

It's my pleasure.

Keep us updated.

 

[kschyff]

I have been watching the pH on both my aquariums and can report the following:

The 60f still has issues and the Fert type does not really seem to make a difference. I don't have the skill to dose on Zn as I have been advised previously. As for the pH the 60f starts at a pH of about 6.8 and goes right down to 6.2 by the time the CO2 switches off. The 60p, which is on a DIY CO2 system fluctuates between 7.1 and 7.2 as the CO2 is on 24/7. The fish are 100% happy. I can't say the one looks 1000% times better than the other as the plants are different, but the plants in the 60f is just brown and yellow. Its beyond frustrating now as I have tried boosting the KH with potassium carbonate now to stabilise the CO2. Only did this today. Maybe I must just put the CO2 on 24/7 as well to get the stability of the 60p. Considering the amount of money spent on the 60f I am thinking of tearing it down and selling those components before they devalue too much. The current KH in the 60f is 1.5, but these kits are not accurate as the KH changes from day to day. The one day it is 1.5 and the next it is 4. I have lost all my MC and it looks like I am going to loose my crypto parva and juncos repens as well. The pinnatifida is still doing well for some unknown reason.

 

[JoshP12]

I have been watching the pH on both my aquariums and can report the following:

The 60f still has issues and the Fert type does not really seem to make a difference. I don't have the skill to dose on Zn as I have been advised previously. As for the pH the 60f starts at a pH of about 6.8 and goes right down to 6.2 by the time the CO2 switches off. The 60p, which is on a DIY CO2 system fluctuates between 7.1 and 7.2 as the CO2 is on 24/7. The fish are 100% happy. I can't say the one looks 1000% times better than the other as the plants are different, but the plants in the 60f is just brown and yellow.

The argument for not putting CO2 on all day is because:
1) "You don't need to"
2) "it is a waste"
3) "The fish don't need to be exposed to CO2 for that long"
4) If you have a pH controller

Frankly, it just doesn't matter. The benefit to having it on all day is that the CO2 will be stable at that pH regardless of whatever. So, there is a huge benefit to your 60p in that your CO2 is at a "sweet spot" and it stays there. The fish are fine, the plants are fine, everything is fine. You enjoy the tank - leave it on all day and forget everything else. If you want to hone it in for the sake of honing it in, then *

There are a lot of people who run a system or follow a standardized procedure because it works - so don't be afraid to do that too. Once it all works and you are happy, then you can shift your approach - for fun.

Maybe I must just put the CO2 on 24/7 as well to get the stability of the 60p.

For sure. *What you can do after, if you don't want to run it all day is just start turning it on for 23 hours a day, then leave it, then the next week, 22 hours, and so on until you find the sweet spot without running that "extra" time.

If the 60f has no fish, then crank the CO2 and leave it on all day - save the tank, then save the gas.

Its beyond frustrating now as I have tried boosting the KH with potassium carbonate now to stabilise the CO2. Only did this today.

Stability of CO2 is a tempermental issue.

The unique uptake of CO2 varies by (but not limited to):
1) The plant mass
2) The flow pattern
3) Dissolved organics on surface
4) Concentration of CO2

Here is a ridiculous example:

Consider a jet of water. It rushes towards a leaf the exact same time as a gorgeous neon tetra passes by. The water flows around the tetra, and necessarily over the plant (the plant is unable to trap that CO2 that flew over).

Now, this example is ridiculous but illustrates that CO2 stability is an unreachable goal. Stability is referring to a "guessing" point of saturation (taken at the place and moment in time that you test with your probe) AND HOPE that rate of CO2 injection will be at equilibrium with atmosphere (and gaseous exchange). Now, it is a very good strategy to "start the honing in process" - and it is a useful data point ... but try to not to be tunnelled by it.

In other words, if you kept this going forever, it would stay at that pH - because the gas off rate = gas in rate at this point in time.

So what we care about is what the tank and its inhabitants are telling you. < Here is a post of mine >.

Considering the amount of money spent on the 60f I am thinking of tearing it down and selling those components before they devalue too much. The current KH in the 60f is 1.5, but these kits are not accurate as the KH changes from day to day. The one day it is 1.5 and the next it is 4. I have lost all my MC and it looks like I am going to loose my crypto parva and juncos repens as well. The pinnatifida is still doing well for some unknown reason.

< Totally normal feeling. >

Josh