Deficiency ?

[eminor]

Hello, that tank is driving me crazy, something is not right about plant health except some sp, could somebody help me to show me the problem ? thx
Weird that the tank is nearly algae free

1. Size of tank.
15 gallons

2. Age of the system approximately.
2+ months

3. Tap water parameters.
GH = 17, KH = 11, NO3 vary from 19ppm to 35 ppm

4. Filtration.
eden 521 800l/hr

5. Lighting and duration.
diy led 5730 180led 60° lenses, 41w max, dimmed to 15w, maybe i need to go back to t5ho ?

6. Substrate.
Pool filter sand, 0.6/1.6 mm

7. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.
Co2, can't do a ph profile unfortunaly, drop lime green at start

8. Fertilizers used + Ratios.
Estimative index, NO3 : 20 from KNO3, 15+ from tap, PO4 : 3ppm from KH2PO4, tap is really low on po4. K from K2SO4 = 30ppm, calcium = 120 mg/l from tap, magnesium = 10 ppm, micro from easylife profito, Fe = 0.5 ppm

9. Water change regime and composition.
50 % weekly, 50% tap water & 50% rain water

10. Plant list.
Didiplis diandra, pellia, rotala rotundifolia, rotala orange juice, reinecki mini, myriophyllum tuberculatum, java moss, rotala walichii, nesae pedicillata golden, myriophyllum red stem

11. Inhabitants.
Cherry Shrimp

12. Full tank shot & Surface image.

 

[erwin123]

Using a sand substrate seems to be just that much harder than aquasoil.
With aquasoil you can go on holiday, plants will still be ok.... as I found out recently....

 

[eminor]

Using a sand substrate seems to be just that much harder than aquasoil.
With aquasoil you can go on holiday, plants will still be ok.... as I found out recently....

Yes, definetly, but how people manage to grow with inert soil ?

 

[G H Nelson]

Yes, definetly, but how people manage to grow with inert soil ?

Probably because the use root tablets/balls and their water parameters are better suited, for the plants they have in the set-up!

 

[eminor]

Probably because the use root tablets/balls and their water parameters are better suited, for the plants they have in the set-up!

So i might have better luck selecting species that are in good shape right now and remove the rest

 

[G H Nelson]

Which sp is not doing well?
You could remove and check the root growth on poor plants!

 

[eminor]

Which sp is not doing well?
You could remove and check the root growth on poor plants!

ammania pedicellata golden, rotala orange juice (kind of ok), didiplis diandra, rotala walichii are not in good conditions, i was thinking about roll an osmocote ball around the root ?

pogostemon erectus, alernanthera reineckii mini, pellia, java moss, tuberculatum seems fine

It"s weird because i use estimative index

 

[Hanuman]

It"s weird because i use estimative index

Yes but your water is rather hard with a quite high GH and most importantly high KH. Some plants simply don't do well in high KH. Also why are you using EI considering your tap water is high in NO3? If you are cutting it by 50% with rain water that means you still have plenty of NO3 and with accumulation you'll probably be well above 15/20ppm in no time. IME your issue is mainly your KH, and yes with inert substrate you need to be really on top of your fert regime as that's the only source of food your plants can rely on.

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi
I would try having a water change mix of 75% Rain Water and 25% Tap water for a few months and monitor the progress!
Osmocote are slow release so not my preferred choice.
I use these below with good success in sand.

.
hoggie

 

[eminor]

Yes but your water is rather hard with a quite high GH and most importantly high KH. Some plants simply don't do well in high KH. Also why are you using EI considering your tap water is high in NO3? If you are cutting it by 50% with rain water that means you still have plenty of NO3 and with accumulation you'll probably be well above 15/20ppm in no time. IME your issue is mainly your KH, and yes with inert substrate you need to be really on top of your fert regime as that's the only source of food your plants can rely on.

Yes, i was reading clive post, he told that no need to worry which amount of nutrients there is in tap, i tough 5 kh was soft enough. With aquasoil i had great result with tap water, sand is another story.

Hi
I would try having a water change mix of 75% Rain Water and 25% Tap water for a few months and monitor the progress!
Osmocote are slow release so not my preferred choice.
I use these below with good success in sand.
View attachment 199048.
hoggie

I'll try, plant seems to hate high KH, osmocote result is too long, i agree

 

[Happi]

Yes, definetly, but how people manage to grow with inert soil ?

it will come down to how the tank is fertilized and which chemicals are being used. for example take a look at @plantnoobdude tank here.

i was thinking about roll an osmocote ball around the root ?

i personally do not recommend using root tabs, it can alter the water chemistry and can interfere with the experiments if that is your main goal.

i tough 5 kh was soft enough. With aquasoil i had great result with tap water, sand is another story.

aqua soil further reduce the KH/PH of the water, something you wont able to achieve with inert sand. RO water would be good choice in that case.

 

[plantnoobdude]

i personally do not recommend using root tabs, it can alter the water chemistry and can interfere with the experiments if that is your main goal.

Same here, will never use root tabs again, always resulted in algae for me.

 

[Happi]

Hello, that tank is driving me crazy, something is not right about plant health except some sp, could somebody help me to show me the problem ? thx
Weird that the tank is nearly algae free

1. Size of tank.
15 gallons

2. Age of the system approximately.
2+ months

3. Tap water parameters.
GH = 17, KH = 11, NO3 vary from 19ppm to 35 ppm

4. Filtration.
eden 521 800l/hr

5. Lighting and duration.
diy led 5730 180led 60° lenses, 41w max, dimmed to 15w, maybe i need to go back to t5ho ?

6. Substrate.
Pool filter sand, 0.6/1.6 mm

7. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.
Co2, can't do a ph profile unfortunaly, drop lime green at start

8. Fertilizers used + Ratios.
Estimative index, NO3 : 20 from KNO3, 15+ from tap, PO4 : 3ppm from KH2PO4, tap is really low on po4. K from K2SO4 = 30ppm, calcium = 120 mg/l from tap, magnesium = 10 ppm, micro from easylife profito, Fe = 0.5 ppm

9. Water change regime and composition.
50 % weekly, 50% tap water & 50% rain water

10. Plant list.
Didiplis diandra, pellia, rotala rotundifolia, rotala orange juice, reinecki mini, myriophyllum tuberculatum, java moss, rotala walichii, nesae pedicillata golden, myriophyllum red stem

11. Inhabitants.
Cherry Shrimp

12. Full tank shot & Surface image.

View attachment 199015

to me the main issue is highly related to the availability of the nutrients here. we have some comrade working on this area where the plant leaf obtained chlorosis related to Fe despite adding lot of Fe and how making the changes to the chemical sources makes a big different. but we must wait for @KirstyF to complete her experiment before the final conclusion can be made based on her experiment.

 

[KirstyF]

As @Happi has mentioned, I’ve come across a few people now suffering from chlorosis despite appearing to be dosing everything they need. I have hard water at around 11/12Kh and have been experimenting for some time now with Fe dosing.

I have used Fe DTPA up to 0.5ppm, a DTPA and EDDHA mix at 0.3ppm and a DTPA and Fe gluconate mix at 0.3ppm (0.15ppm each) The gluconate mix gave rapid and effective results where the other dosing failed to do so.

As I believe that for anything to be concluded, the response must be repeatable, I have since removed the gluconate and gone back to DTPA only at 0.3ppm and saw the start of chlorosis in new growth within 3 weeks.

Just yesterday, I started a new mix with gluconate at 0.15ppm to see if I again get a rapid greening response with gluconate only, despite this being at a lower level.

If I do not see adequate results over the next 3 weeks, I plan to increase the gluconate only level to observe the impact.

As gluconate is short lived in hard water, it should also be noted that this ppm level is split into 3 equal doses, used over a week so it is likely that total Fe level at any one time is, in fact, very low.

The micros are also dosed fairly early in the photoperiod to allow the best possible ‘access’ to the available Fe prior to any potential loss via precipitation.

The general wisdom is that a stronger chelate will give superior results in higher Ph, harder water (and the science supports that) yet so far, my results appear to imply that actually Fe that is easier for plants to uptake rather than more strongly ‘bound’ may offer better results.

As @Happi has also mentioned, this is still work in progress and I would point out that my experimenting has only been based around Fe dosing, which is not the only cause of chlorosis. Were you to feel like trying a little gluconate in your tank however, I would be fascinated to hear whether you see any improvement.

My primary ‘canary’ plant, which shows the quickest and most noticeable colour changes is Blyxa and it is planted in sand.

 

[eminor]

As @Happi has mentioned, I’ve come across a few people now suffering from chlorosis despite appearing to be dosing everything they need. I have hard water at around 11/12Kh and have been experimenting for some time now with Fe dosing.

I have used Fe DTPA up to 0.5ppm, a DTPA and EDDHA mix at 0.3ppm and a DTPA and Fe gluconate mix at 0.3ppm (0.15ppm each) The gluconate mix gave rapid and effective results where the other dosing failed to do so.

As I believe that for anything to be concluded, the response must be repeatable, I have since removed the gluconate and gone back to DTPA only at 0.3ppm and saw the start of chlorosis in new growth within 3 weeks.

Just yesterday, I started a new mix with gluconate at 0.15ppm to see if I again get a rapid greening response with gluconate only, despite this being at a lower level.

If I do not see adequate results over the next 3 weeks, I plan to increase the gluconate only level to observe the impact.

As gluconate is short lived in hard water, it should also be noted that this ppm level is split into 3 equal doses, used over a week so it is likely that total Fe level at any one time is, in fact, very low.

The micros are also dosed fairly early in the photoperiod to allow the best possible ‘access’ to the available Fe prior to any potential loss via precipitation.

The general wisdom is that a stronger chelate will give superior results in higher Ph, harder water (and the science supports that) yet so far, my results appear to imply that actually Fe that is easier for plants to uptake rather than more strongly ‘bound’ may offer better results.

As @Happi has also mentioned, this is still work in progress and I would point out that my experimenting has only been based around Fe dosing, which is not the only cause of chlorosis. Were you to feel like trying a little gluconate in your tank however, I would be fascinated to hear whether you see any improvement.

My primary ‘canary’ plant, which shows the quickest and most noticeable colour changes is Blyxa and it is planted in sand.

That some incredible tips, i keep thinking about when chlorosis began, i dosed 0.06 FE DTPA a week, since i increased the rain water/tap to 50/50 ( was 75/25 before) i started to see chlorosis. Urea also gave me better result overall. I'll try gluconate for my hard water tanks, thanks so much

 

[Happi]

I'll try gluconate for my hard water tanks

it will require some adjustments far as how much to dose. because this one you truly have to find out how much you will need to dose. I believe 0.3 ppm Fe Gluconate weekly is what Kirsty was dosing, you can aim for 0.3-0.5 ppm split doses and report back. i assume you will still be using easylife profito ? I would suggest getting Micro separately from any kind of Iron added to it to begin with, so this could give you better control when Iron and Micros are dosed separately.

 

[eminor]

it will require some adjustments far as how much to dose. because this one you truly have to find out how much you will need to dose. I believe 0.3 ppm Fe Gluconate weekly is what Kirsty was dosing, you can aim for 0.3-0.5 ppm split doses and report back. i assume you will still be using easylife profito ? I would suggest getting Micro separately from any kind of Iron added to it to begin with, so this could give you better control when Iron and Micros are dosed separately.

True, i still dose profito which use EDTA & DTPA chelator if i'm not wrong. I don't see how i could get micro without iron in France, does iron gluconate will interact with chelated iron ?

 

[Happi]

does iron gluconate will interact with chelated iron ?

that's not the problem, the problem is in order to reach certain Micro levels while using easylife profito you will also be adding Iron from easylife profito and then Fe Gluconate on top of that. you could probably target 0.15 Fe from easylife profito weekly and then 0.3 ppm Fe Gluconate weekly for now.

 

[eminor]

Hi
I would try having a water change mix of 75% Rain Water and 25% Tap water for a few months and monitor the progress!
Osmocote are slow release so not my preferred choice.
I use these below with good success in sand.
View attachment 199048.
hoggie

If put under and beside difficult sp, can i grow them with those sticks ?
What's the different between that and osmocote ? thx

 

[_Maq_]

It"s weird because i use estimative index

Right now I've been running a test relating to K:Mg:Ca ratio. Two of the four tanks feature "average Barr", i.e. EI. Plants suffer from relative magnesium deficiency, symptoms are quite similar to those of yours.
You dose too much potassium. Drop K2SO4, KNO3 is enough. And add some magnesium (perhaps MgSO4, or MgCl2).
Ideal ratio [by weight] is K:Mg:Ca = 1:3:10. Not set in stone, but the closer you get to that the better.