Did something eat these?

JoshP12

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Hi all!

Most of my Rotala Rotundifolia looks good!

Except I noticed this in the pictures below:
1593041269854.png

What you are looking at is a picture taken of the rotala at the back of a bush against the glass(so there is a reflection behind it). I wouldn't be surprised if that thinning thickens later as it is likely just CO2 trying to make its way to there through the bush. I am not worried about those.
1593041420119.png

This one is bizarre? Ironically, both of these "holey leaves" line up along the same "time" a few days ago (since then healthy growth emerged).

Do they look munched on? I also thought it may be from my excel dose which I have recently reduced. It was only the two stems that were affected.

Any ideas?

Oh, and:
Size: 65 gallon
Lights: 2x AI prime at 35%
Flow: Spray bar
Filter: 365 GPH <-- bit slow about 5-6x my volume (purigen + foam + scrubby pads + fluval biomax)
Tropica + sand substrate + flourite below the higher portions
EI micro and macro daily
WC 60%'ers at least once a week at most twice.
DC = lime green
pH drop about 1.2 ish +/-
20 Neons, 3 ottos, 1 rubber lip pleco
Anubias, buce, ludwigia repens, rotala rotundifolia, s repents, crypt undulata, pogostemon erectus

1593041689888.png


Josh
 

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rebel

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Bit sus for Mg deficiency or maybe K. Any other plants struggling especially that Styrogyne repens?
 

JoshP12

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Bit sus for Mg deficiency or maybe K. Any other plants struggling especially that Styrogyne repens?

None at all. Literally the two stems exclusively in the entire tank.

The surrounding rotala look great.
 

JoshP12

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I am starting to think that I reduced my Excel dose too quickly and perhaps the unhealthy stems (I noticed a couple more - I just took a really good look) were unable to handle the transition so quickly. However, the already healthy, healthy leaves were probably just fine to adapt.

Josh
 

dw1305

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Hi all,
@dw1305 any ideas?
Not really. My guess is that it is a deficiency symptom, rather then mechanical damage by snail etc.
....for Mg deficiency or maybe K.
That would be my guess, but it would be just a guess.
I reduced my Excel dose too quickly
Carbon (C) would also be a possibility.

It is really difficult to diagnose most deficiency symptoms, iron (Fe), and to a lesser degree nitrogen (N), are possible and you can discount CO2 if you use a a floating plant, but after that you are struggling.

cheers Darrel
 

JoshP12

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Just a side note - how can only SOME plants show deficiency system in a tank? Meanwhile others show none - in the same area and species.

Is it as I thought where it was healthy enough beforehand to “handle” a nutrient limitation more effectively?

Josh
 

Ray

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Just a side note - how can only SOME plants show deficiency system in a tank? Meanwhile others show none - in the same area and species.

Is it as I thought where it was healthy enough beforehand to “handle” a nutrient limitation more effectively?
You’re not going to like the answer: every single plant has different requirements for CO2, light and each and every nutrient (within certain limits at least).
And yes, they can store stuff up to a certain extent and the ability to do that will vary too :)
 

JoshP12

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You’re not going to like the answer: every single plant has different requirements for CO2, light and each and every nutrient (within certain limits at least).
And yes, they can store stuff up to a certain extent and the ability to do that will vary too :)

I do like the answer!! So each individual plant even if all of the same species and in the same spot have slightly different requirements?

They are like fish 🐠? Individual temperaments? Lol.

Josh
 

Ray

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I do like the answer!! So each individual plant even if all of the same species and in the same spot have slightly different requirements?

They are like fish ? Individual temperaments? Lol.

Josh

The plants, even of the same species, adapt to the conditions they are in. Since light and flow (which affects access to nutrients including CO2) are not uniform everywhere each stem will be running a slightly different configuration.

So a stem that has worse flow but more light will try to grow faster but also run out of nutrients sooner - thus showing deficiencies first - if that makes sense?

EDIT: you could also in theory have genetic differences although most of the plants we buy are probably derived from the same stock.
 

JoshP12

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I started noticing more plants experience this as I continue to reduce my Excel dose ... I am going to stop dosing it entirely so I expect to see more of this melt.

For what it's worth, it is absolutely remarkable to see the plant suffer from experiencing one content of Carbon to a relatively sudden drop -- the effects are real.

I am sure that this can occur with other nutrients as well. Plants adapting to their conditions are remarkable. In one of the photos above, there was death in a lower leaf but all new leaves were healthy. It must have rearranged its configuration in between :thumbup:.

Cheers,
Josh
 
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soham

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Please stop dosing EI for few days, reduce your trace dosing to a max of 0.1-0.2 ppm per week. For potassium and nitrate stay under 5-7 ppm.Do few water changes. Ofcourse you can increase the dosing even more as few suggested, I bet you wouldn't see any difference. How hard is your water?
 

JoshP12

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Hi @soham,

I do intend to reduce my dosing regime (as stated in some other posts) - merely to experience exactly that: how much “overdose” is there. In other words, how much under the EI dose is my tank performing.

Unfortunately, I am in the process of drastically increasing the light to watch the tank change ... I don’t think it’s smart to also limit nutrients when I don’t know my consumption at my current uptake rate.

My water is 3 ish KH and 6ish GH (German degrees).

Provided my water change has identical water (as close as it can be!) - why reduce the amount/frequency?

Aside from a water manipulating your water chemistry, and in search of true stability and consistency, I don’t understand why to stop.

EDIT: my tank upstairs I actually don’t change much water ... it’s lower tech ... I’ve also read Walstad’s book - she makes great arguments for not needing water changes but her tank is built for it.

Josh
 

JoshP12

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Now you got me thinking about water changes; in many ways, I think it is like any other tool in the hobby.

For example, if your anubias is covered in algae due to unhealthy conditions, then you fix those conditions. What do you do?
1) Treat the old leaves and hope you don't treat them to harshly and destroy the tissues, plunk 'em back in.
2) cut all of the old leaves?
3) cut the leaves off one at a time as new ones pop out?
All the way hoping the rhizome isn't ridden with spores and the plant can recover?

So the use of the water change should be relative to the situation. In other words, generalized notions of change lots of water or change little to no water are well simply that - generalizations.

I would say that some strong advocates of heavy water changes may stop to think when I suggest one 100% change before lights on and one 100% at lights off. Or maybe that would be ok? Never tried it - and I won't unless I hire someone to do it for me :D.

However, you can't change none! Even nature changes water!

Josh
 

alto

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EDIT: my tank upstairs I actually don’t change much water ... it’s lower tech ... I’ve also read Walstad’s book - she makes great arguments for not needing water changes but her tank is built for it.
But in later interviews she had changed her opinion on this and suggested weekly water changes

(She ended up losing all her rainbows to mycobacteriosus (documented) and felt that the lack of water changes had contributed ... certainly current suggestions for home hobbyists wishing to maintain suspected mycobacterium affected fish is excellent supportive care including frequent water changes, antibacterial treatments as needed, etc)
 

JoshP12

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But in later interviews she had changed her opinion on this and suggested weekly water changes

(She ended up losing all her rainbows to mycobacteriosus (documented) and felt that the lack of water changes had contributed ... certainly current suggestions for home hobbyists wishing to maintain suspected mycobacterium affected fish is excellent supportive care including frequent water changes, antibacterial treatments as needed, etc)

I was remiss not to mention that as I only ever "heard" this - I never saw her interview. Thanks for adding that - I think it further illustrates that we need to change some water ... but I am not sure if there exists an upper bound on too much/too frequent ... but I think it goes back to the water change as a "tool" that we use appropriately for the situation.

Josh
 

alto

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I would say that some strong advocates of heavy water changes may stop to think when I suggest one 100% change before lights on and one 100% at lights off. Or maybe that would be ok?
I don’t think it’s possible to change 100% of the water, even with a continuous water change as shown in GF videos, it’s likely some percentage remains “old” (unless the continuous change goes on for a considerable time)

Commercial (and some dedicated hobby) breeders of angelfish, discus often change at least 90% of water daily, or morning and night, or even after each feeding :D
 

JoshP12

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I don’t think it’s possible to change 100% of the water, even with a continuous water change as shown in GF videos, it’s likely some percentage remains “old” (unless the continuous change goes on for a considerable time)

Commercial (and some dedicated hobby) breeders of angelfish, discus often change at least 90% of water daily, or morning and night, or even after each feeding :D

Can we apply those situation to high-tech co2 injected aquaria? I.e. does the addition of plants "change" the situation at all?

Josh
 

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